10-02-2003, 10:30 AM
Robert:
Here's a few answers to some of your questions:
"I've seen many documents offered on many different sites and don't know enough yet about them to tell the authentic from the forgeries."
I think this is a relatively good idea, though, there are a few dealers out there whose items you can trust fully for authenticity. I can give you their names if you'll PM me.
"What reference material is available to us today that narrows down finding out what serial numbers determine WWll-era Orders/medals?"
There is a book, by Anatoli Kutsenko entitled "Orders of the USSR" ("Ordena SSSR" in cyrillic). That's really the only book that gives serial numbers with dates of award. That book, like all good books, it seems, was only printed in a small batch (1000 copies) and thus, are somewhat difficult to find. However, you can occasionally find them on eBay. I would say that if you can buy a copy for under $100, you're doing well (I paid $105 for mine).
With that said, one note of caution that I have is to recommend that you not get "wrapped around the axle" when it comes to serial numbers. While yes, there is a range of numbers which were awarded prior to August 1945 (the actual end of WW2 for the Soviets) there are also many awards given post-war for wartime acts. For example, I have a Patriotic War, 1st class, to a tankist who lost both legs in combat in 1943. He was recommended for the award in 1945, and it was finally approved in 1947! A great award for combat heroism, but awarded two years after the fighting stopped!
Additionally, the reason I never really worry too much about the serial numbers is the fact that a good portion of Red Stars, Red Banners, Lenins and Military Merit medals awarded from 1944 onwards are long service awards. While that may thirll some people, I think most of us would agree that a 25-year service award to an administration officer in Leningrad is relatively less exciting than an award given to someone fighting on the frontlines! :)
"So I assumed that there were possibly hundreds, maybe thousands of Orders awarded after the fighting was over and the smoke cleared to honor recorded exploits during the war-years."
That's true. Awards for WW2 actions were being given out all the way up through 1992. I've had a Glory 3rd awarded in 1991 for actions in WW2, and quite a number of awards from the 50's and 60's with citations for actions during the War. Some awards just took a long time to catch up to people!
"In the document book itself, wouldn't it include all the awards that a certain individual accrued during the war? Or would there be a seperate document book issued for each award?"
Yes and No. When an officer or soldier was discharged after the War, or their paperwork was finally straightened out for the career guys, they would be awarded an order book (or the one for medals, if the didn't have orders) which would list all their orders and medals awarded up to that time. The majority of these award books date from 1946 through 1947. They would list all awards given up to that time.
When a person received another award, it would be presented with another order book. The person could then go and have that award entered into his first order book, or he could simply keep the second order book. I've had groups with upwards to five separate order books! Sometimes as well, the person would have their wartime awards listed in the new order book, though that's not quite as common, and is always a little suspicious to me. :)
"One particular book I saw had the date of issue for the Order on the right side of the book and the date of account being years before on the left page of the book. Is this common? Issue dates long after the war was over? And just for one award?"
Yes, that did happen. See my above account. However, unless you know the reputation of the dealer, always be wary of what's sold on eBay... There's some good stuff on there, but at the same time, that's where a lot of fake groups get peddled! The best remedy: Education. :)
Please feel free to PM me with any other questions you may have.
--Dave
Here's a few answers to some of your questions:
"I've seen many documents offered on many different sites and don't know enough yet about them to tell the authentic from the forgeries."
I think this is a relatively good idea, though, there are a few dealers out there whose items you can trust fully for authenticity. I can give you their names if you'll PM me.
"What reference material is available to us today that narrows down finding out what serial numbers determine WWll-era Orders/medals?"
There is a book, by Anatoli Kutsenko entitled "Orders of the USSR" ("Ordena SSSR" in cyrillic). That's really the only book that gives serial numbers with dates of award. That book, like all good books, it seems, was only printed in a small batch (1000 copies) and thus, are somewhat difficult to find. However, you can occasionally find them on eBay. I would say that if you can buy a copy for under $100, you're doing well (I paid $105 for mine).
With that said, one note of caution that I have is to recommend that you not get "wrapped around the axle" when it comes to serial numbers. While yes, there is a range of numbers which were awarded prior to August 1945 (the actual end of WW2 for the Soviets) there are also many awards given post-war for wartime acts. For example, I have a Patriotic War, 1st class, to a tankist who lost both legs in combat in 1943. He was recommended for the award in 1945, and it was finally approved in 1947! A great award for combat heroism, but awarded two years after the fighting stopped!
Additionally, the reason I never really worry too much about the serial numbers is the fact that a good portion of Red Stars, Red Banners, Lenins and Military Merit medals awarded from 1944 onwards are long service awards. While that may thirll some people, I think most of us would agree that a 25-year service award to an administration officer in Leningrad is relatively less exciting than an award given to someone fighting on the frontlines! :)
"So I assumed that there were possibly hundreds, maybe thousands of Orders awarded after the fighting was over and the smoke cleared to honor recorded exploits during the war-years."
That's true. Awards for WW2 actions were being given out all the way up through 1992. I've had a Glory 3rd awarded in 1991 for actions in WW2, and quite a number of awards from the 50's and 60's with citations for actions during the War. Some awards just took a long time to catch up to people!
"In the document book itself, wouldn't it include all the awards that a certain individual accrued during the war? Or would there be a seperate document book issued for each award?"
Yes and No. When an officer or soldier was discharged after the War, or their paperwork was finally straightened out for the career guys, they would be awarded an order book (or the one for medals, if the didn't have orders) which would list all their orders and medals awarded up to that time. The majority of these award books date from 1946 through 1947. They would list all awards given up to that time.
When a person received another award, it would be presented with another order book. The person could then go and have that award entered into his first order book, or he could simply keep the second order book. I've had groups with upwards to five separate order books! Sometimes as well, the person would have their wartime awards listed in the new order book, though that's not quite as common, and is always a little suspicious to me. :)
"One particular book I saw had the date of issue for the Order on the right side of the book and the date of account being years before on the left page of the book. Is this common? Issue dates long after the war was over? And just for one award?"
Yes, that did happen. See my above account. However, unless you know the reputation of the dealer, always be wary of what's sold on eBay... There's some good stuff on there, but at the same time, that's where a lot of fake groups get peddled! The best remedy: Education. :)
Please feel free to PM me with any other questions you may have.
--Dave
