Glory.

[Nack]

It could be a scanning effect, but it looks like there is gold plating over nicks on the award face. It also kinda like there is some gold over the tower, which is pretty-well worn down.

But, as far as I know, that seller is ok, and I think fakes were much less prevalent then as opposed to now. Further, I understand that Glory IIs were sometimes replated. Finally, I'm not exactly an expert, so these are just observations. I'm sure some far-more-qualified individuals will offer an opinion.

[PaulR]

Nack,

I have no problems with your observations. I am actually quite thankful that you made them.

I am confident that the piece is legit(because of the time period and the place where it was bought). The Serial Number also fits the bill as well. Even if it did not, can you imagine what a great find a Order of Glory 3rd class would be with this number?!?!

With that being said, I believe that it could be replated by the original owner? I know that re-ribboning occurred ALOT back in the early 90s, tampering with the actual medal was still considered sacrilegious

Can someone please post one with a good center for comparison?

[Tal Inbar]

It is obvious that the 2nd class center was gold plated not only in the mint...but some time by the owner/seller. The s/n looks OK, but it could be a 3rd class with very low S/N converted to 2nd class.

[PaulR]

I guess that there is no way to ever know for sure:( When I was buying these, I do know that the seller was placing a lot of value based upon the number. I dont think that he would have altered this medal, because he would have stood to gain a lot more with a third with a really low number.

Just to cover all bases, would this be a correct type/variation if it was a third class based upon the number?

[Dave]

Originally Posted by MONDVOR

Dave, here is another protocol. As you can see, close numbers were bestowed by the Prikazes of different Fronts (North-Western and Kalinin Fronts) and even for the same Front there are two different datas of Prikaz (for February and March). I highlighted the dates and the names of the Fronts.

Andrew:

I think that this Protocol you show is more an exception than what was normal. All of us know that Glory 3rd Class awards are difficult to pin down as far as when they were awarded and by whom. Even the first work that attempted to pin down dates and number patterns (Orders of the USSR by Kutsenko) refused to list Glory 3rds with award dates, simply because there are too many exceptions.

With that said, people like Desantnik have compiled sufficient databases of awards that you CAN see patterns for many of these awards (Glory and others) Yes, there are exceptions to the rule, catch up awards (like these in this Protocol) and so on, but for probably a vast majority, there were patterns of issuing that allow one to make generalizations (and like I said above, never perfect, until absolutely proven through research) about what award was issued where.

I have spoken to numerous recipients of Soviet awards, and they all tell me about the "cases of awards" that their individual awards came from. Granted, these were mostly issued from the Army level, with a few exceptions from the Front level, but every unit had a case (or two or more) that they took the orders from. These cases of orders were from the mint, and held consecutive serial numbered awards. Every unit - from Division on up - recieved these cases of awards. Some units went through more cases of awards than others, and some went through fewer cases of awards, thus resulting in some very strangely skewed serial number patterns by the end of the war by a handful of units.

Like I said in a previous post, we don't know the exact number of awards per case. However, one can assume though that numbers within close proximity of others may well have come from the same case of awards. What one cannot know for certain before research is what level the case was awarded at. I would assume that cases for higher units were sometimes split for catch-up awards, as well as cases of awards that might have been sent to large hospitals or convelescent centers. There, you might see wide ranges of awarding times with similar awards numbers - much like the last Protocol that you posted.

However, with the few Protocols that I have seen, the award numbers were issued by the same unit and were consecutive based on the same Prikaz. This is how I believe the vast majority of lower awards were issued on the front. Higher (and other) awards that could be presented in the Kremlin likewise followed the same theory - it's just that those cases of awards given to the Kremlin were awarded at different rates than those at the front, and thus more anomolies exist.

One thing about Kremlin awards is nice though - the awards issued by the Kremlin during the Cold War years followed a reasonably exacting serial number pattern. One can identify several major awardings based on serial number for long service, post-war wounds and the like. All of this has been based on the Ukaz date and the serial number of the award.

So here's my thought... If we can go and make a rough guideline for maybe 70% of awards, why not do it? It would be silly for us to not make lists of award numbers and dates while attempting to find Protocols for each and every award. Not only would it be expensive, but I have tried lesser requests for research from the Archives and have quickly gotten rebuffed for them! No list of awards will ever be perfect, but I like to think that we can make one as good as humanly possible and reasonably accurate, which is what desantnik has done in his fine book, and many of us continue to do with our own lists.

Just my thoughts on the subject...

Dave

[MONDVOR]

Dave, I would not go into deep discussion on this topic. Some people like straight facts, others prefer assumptions. Every person can make his own way. The only point - not to mix date of Prikaz and date of issue.
If you are making a list of those awards, just make two columns - one for date of Prikaz, the other for the date it was bestowed. If either date is unknown leave this column blank. It would be more scientifically correct way, than mix all together.
As you can see, I prefer to illustrate my examples with some evidences (scans). I posted a scan, you told me this is an exception :) So what is a reason to post anything?
If Desantnik has a big database that you mentioned, maybe he could share this information with us?

[Dave]

Originally Posted by MONDVOR

If Desantnik has a big database that you mentioned, maybe he could share this information with us?

Andrew:

He already has. It's a book called "Echoes of War". It's also known as "the green bible" in many collector circles. Perhaps you've heard of it? :D

Dave

[MONDVOR]

Dave, of course I've seen this book. But the amount of the dates displayed for the different awards is very small. I have much greater volume of information in my database (in some cases up to 10 times), but even with those numbers that I have I would never dare to publish them. Eventually I have some plans to create the book on this topic, but not during next 5 years. Need more datas...
To publish something you have to cover at least 10 percent of issued numbers. This is just my opinion, I might be wrong. Maybe I'm too picky :)

[kingsnorth]

Any experts out there know if there is an easy way of finding out if a set of 3 Order of Glorys (1st,2nd & 3rd class) were awarded to the same person.I'm sure i've read recently that there are/were very few people awarded with all 3 medals and were known as cavaliers or something similar. I'm sure I have seen books that specifically deal with them. Secondly, I realise the first class is widely copied and extremely difficult to detect but what would a genuine set cost on the open market.
Any info would be appreciated.
Regards
Keith

[desantnik]

Keith, you've asked several questions and I don't know what you are getting at. Approximately 2600 individuals were awarded all three classes and yes, a complete set is a prized and hard to find addition to one's collection. If you narrow down your question, there are references that respectively: tell how to determine real examples from fakes, give short biographies and briefly describe what the individual did to earn all three classes, and even tell which serial numbers were awarded to each individual.