Order Booklets - Page 4

Tal Inbar · 10-23-2002, 06:02 PM

Gentelmen, I think there is a missunderstanding here.
The description in the first post is in contradiction with the picture - the first post says the photo corner was removed , but the picture shows clearly it was NOT been removed, it is the white corner which the stamp stamped on it!

Documents could be found :

1. Without photo - and without any stamp
2. without photo - With stamp that validate it - but NO round
stamp
3. - " -, but With round stamp
4. with photo, and round stamp
5. with photo, but without round stamp
6. with photo, added later, with or without stamp
7. Like no. 4,5,6 but with white corner.

Tal

Nota Bene · 10-23-2002, 06:35 PM

I am at a loss! I was under the impression that the corner of the photo was cut out. Mark, can you shed the light on this issue, please

Alexei

ibaya · 10-23-2002, 07:28 PM

I think the confusion lies in what is meant by "cut-out".

They must have meant the corner of the photograph was blocked out during exposure (during either the negative developing or the photoprinting), leaving a white patch that would clearly show any stamp applied on the seam between photo and document.

Mozzabloke · 10-24-2002, 02:07 AM

Alexei,
Sorry for the confusion, Looking through my last few posts I have not been as clear as I could have been.

Before I recieved the award book it looked as though the bottom had been cut out on the scans I saw (the first posted scan).

Once I recieved it I could see that the bottom had not been cut out but instead it had a white border on it that ran along the bottom of the photo rather than uo the right hand side (see my 2nd scan).

Hope this clears up the confusion.

Mark

Nota Bene · 10-24-2002, 07:00 PM

Mark,

Thanks for the explanation, it does clear up the confusion. For some reason on my monitor it looks like the corner of the photo was actually cut off to show the stamp that would've been under the photo. Culpa mea, sorry :(

Alexei

charlet · 01-30-2003, 11:09 AM

Hi gentlemen,
I'm troubled (yes you'll say I'm a beginner and I'm always...) by this doc: is the date non written an important default?

bad scan...

slava1stclass · 01-30-2003, 12:31 PM

To all:

Over the past 11 years, I have encountered several Full Knight award booklets wherein the date the booklet was issued was absent (as is the case above). I have also seen Full Knight award booklets that were: 1) missing the recipient's photo and date of issue, 2) had the photo but the photo did not have the official stamp on it or the date it was issued. In each case, however, the award booklets had all of the remaining data (recipient's name, serial numbers for each of the three classes and issuing authority information) and were original in every respect.
I have seen this same 1st Class listed before on this major dealer's web site. I assume it either didn't sell the first time around and he's now relisting it or that it was sold back to him.
Please see my related thread under the Orders category entitled "The Order of Glory - Present Day Market Realities" for more information.

Regards,

slava1stclass

yolkin · 01-30-2003, 03:13 PM

Interesting wording "Full Knight" -- sounds so foreign (non-Soviet)

We usually just call it a Full Cavalier of Order of ...

Just a thought during a mind numbing day at work...

Eric

slava1stclass · 01-30-2003, 03:26 PM

As someone who speaks Russian, knight is an acceptable translation of the word "Kavaler" from Russian to English. In the strictest sense of translation from the Russian, however, "Kavaler" means "Holder" or someone who possesses an award/decoration. Therefore, any Red Army soldier or officer who earned an order, even if it was only the lowest class of the order, was considered a "Kavaler" of that order.
Used in a military context, I personally find the word knight much more appropriate than cavalier and therefore it's what I use.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Nota Bene · 01-30-2003, 05:21 PM

Any good translator should take into account not only the meaning of the term, but also the tradition, customary usage, as well as the historic context. For this reason I believe that the term "knight" is totally unacceptable when referring to the Soviet awards. Just my opinion.

Alexei

10-23-2002, 06:02 PM	#1
Tal Inbar Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Israel Age: 55 Posts: 2,302	Gentelmen, I think there is a missunderstanding here. The description in the first post is in contradiction with the picture - the first post says the photo corner was removed , but the picture shows clearly it was NOT been removed, it is the white corner which the stamp stamped on it! Documents could be found : 1. Without photo - and without any stamp 2. without photo - With stamp that validate it - but NO round stamp 3. - " -, but With round stamp 4. with photo, and round stamp 5. with photo, but without round stamp 6. with photo, added later, with or without stamp 7. Like no. 4,5,6 but with white corner. Tal __________________ Under the banner of Marxism-Leninism, under the leadership of the Communist Party--forward to new victories in the construction of communism! Last edited by Tal Inbar; 10-23-2002 at 06:39 PM.

01-30-2003, 03:13 PM	#8
yolkin Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Chicago Age: 46 Posts: 206	FYI Interesting wording "Full Knight" -- sounds so foreign (non-Soviet) We usually just call it a Full Cavalier of Order of ... Just a thought during a mind numbing day at work... Eric __________________ Soviet Union is the only country with an unpredictable ... past!

01-30-2003, 03:26 PM	#9
slava1stclass Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 838	As someone who speaks Russian, knight is an acceptable translation of the word "Kavaler" from Russian to English. In the strictest sense of translation from the Russian, however, "Kavaler" means "Holder" or someone who possesses an award/decoration. Therefore, any Red Army soldier or officer who earned an order, even if it was only the lowest class of the order, was considered a "Kavaler" of that order. Used in a military context, I personally find the word knight much more appropriate than cavalier and therefore it's what I use. Regards, slava1stclass Last edited by slava1stclass; 01-30-2003 at 04:09 PM.

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10-23-2002, 06:35 PM	#2
Nota Bene Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: New York USA Posts: 2,296	I am at a loss! I was under the impression that the corner of the photo was cut out. Mark, can you shed the light on this issue, please Alexei

10-23-2002, 07:28 PM	#3
ibaya Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Maryland, USA Age: 54 Posts: 200	I think the confusion lies in what is meant by "cut-out". They must have meant the corner of the photograph was blocked out during exposure (during either the negative developing or the photoprinting), leaving a white patch that would clearly show any stamp applied on the seam between photo and document.

10-24-2002, 02:07 AM	#4
Mozzabloke Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Sheffield, England Age: 49 Posts: 104	Alexei, Sorry for the confusion, Looking through my last few posts I have not been as clear as I could have been. Before I recieved the award book it looked as though the bottom had been cut out on the scans I saw (the first posted scan). Once I recieved it I could see that the bottom had not been cut out but instead it had a white border on it that ran along the bottom of the photo rather than uo the right hand side (see my 2nd scan). Hope this clears up the confusion. Mark

10-24-2002, 07:00 PM	#5
Nota Bene Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: New York USA Posts: 2,296	Mark, Thanks for the explanation, it does clear up the confusion. For some reason on my monitor it looks like the corner of the photo was actually cut off to show the stamp that would've been under the photo. Culpa mea, sorry :( Alexei

01-30-2003, 12:31 PM	#7
slava1stclass Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 838	To all: Over the past 11 years, I have encountered several Full Knight award booklets wherein the date the booklet was issued was absent (as is the case above). I have also seen Full Knight award booklets that were: 1) missing the recipient's photo and date of issue, 2) had the photo but the photo did not have the official stamp on it or the date it was issued. In each case, however, the award booklets had all of the remaining data (recipient's name, serial numbers for each of the three classes and issuing authority information) and were original in every respect. I have seen this same 1st Class listed before on this major dealer's web site. I assume it either didn't sell the first time around and he's now relisting it or that it was sold back to him. Please see my related thread under the Orders category entitled "The Order of Glory - Present Day Market Realities" for more information. Regards, slava1stclass

01-30-2003, 05:21 PM	#10
Nota Bene Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: New York USA Posts: 2,296	Any good translator should take into account not only the meaning of the term, but also the tradition, customary usage, as well as the historic context. For this reason I believe that the term "knight" is totally unacceptable when referring to the Soviet awards. Just my opinion. Alexei

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