Order for Service to the Homeland + Red Star Group

[Bob]

Originally Posted by Dave

I now know how the fake document was made. I thought the writing looked really familiar and that scan...that scan just looked too familiar... So, digging through 15,000+ .jpgs on my computer, loooooky what I found!

Here's the original scan, that was lifted off my website, compared with the photocopy. You can see where the blemishes from the scan line up PERFECTLY. The number is coincidentally similar...easily done with photoshop. Likewise for changing the year on the date...

Thanks for this Dave:
1:0 for the good guys vs. the fakers this time around.:thumbsup

Also interesting to note that the serial number on the book from your site vs. the xerox scam one is virtually identical... were it not for 2 digits being flipped. Wait a minute, where have I seen that before?:mad:

[Lapa]

Originally Posted by Bob

Thanks for this Dave:
1:0 for the good guys vs. the fakers this time around.:thumbsup

Also interesting to note that the serial number on the book from your site vs. the xerox scam one is virtually identical... were it not for 2 digits being flipped. Wait a minute, where have I seen that before?:mad:

Bob,

I think that Dave's investigative work has been outstanding :thumbsup
I wouldn't be overly surprized if we never heard any further explanations from "the other party".

Marc

[Christophe]

Hi,

Nothing to add, here, as many things have already been said... And probably more to come... Sad story, but IMHO, not sad enough to lead us of the collecting domain. We have to be vigilant even more, and what happened here is reaching high level of "creativity"... :thumbsdown

BTW, Dave, congrats!! You are better than Sherlock Holmes!!! :thumbsup ...and 15.000 JPGs... Pfouuuu!! :)

Cheers.

Ch.

[andrew6767]

Originally Posted by Lapa

Alnigi, Andrew6767,

I, for one, would like to know who we are talking about.

Marc

Marc

That makes it a bit hard after I have said I am not going to comment again on the matter , however I have ripped in to this person publically on the board and my post was deleted so I dont think posting his username would see my post last very long if I did.

Yes , I also forgot to congratulate the detective work by Dave which was absolutely outstanding. Well done , great to see another bad guy getting exposed for what he is. I will be very interested to see what eventuates from all this.

[jefflgarrison]

Originally Posted by Mark Signa

First time, in August last year, I had this qroup in my possession for couple month and then, trade it with local Chicagoland dealer.

ok, so you got it in August and sold it before November.

Originally Posted by Mark Signa

Then, in one of the militaria shows,in February-March, I bought this group back with long service medals and Order of Red Star added .

ok, possibly three months out of your hands and changed hands to another person.

Originally Posted by Mark Signa

Dealer from Minnesota requested additional research and receive more copies of documents and Order of Red Star.

Ok, would love to know who this dealer works with since he gets his research FAR quicker than anyone else we know. Furthermore, why request further research on an award that has already been researched? So the research Dave received was faulty?

Originally Posted by Mark Signa

I added couple medals and badges to this group, but I don’t see anything wrong with THAT!

BIG mistake.

Finally, what gets me is the timeline doesn't add up. Why were you asking about Red Star number series for an award that you supposedly didn't have in your posession? If the guy from Minnisota received the info AFTER you sold it to someone in "Chicagoland", how would you know about it before hand?

Don't look now but it seems that "YOUR PANTS ARE ON FIRE"!

I would suggest making this "crystal clear" before you burst into flames!

[Art]

Originally Posted by alnigi

Hi guys,
Could I contribute to this topic. We all know about people selling fakes here and on eBay. But we are all interested in who is selling them on the forum. Can andrew 6767 let us know who he is talking about as I think it should be comunicated to evey member not just in PM.:confused:

Yes, this should be done via PM. I have no evidence the awards sold by this person are fake. If anyone has issues with any item for sale here, feel free to post a comment expanding on why you consider the item is fake. Remember, it's up to the buyer to do their own due diligence when considering a purchase. Particularly rare collectibles that are notorious for being faked. Posts which call the authenticity of an item posted forsale here into question and pose no way for a seller to respond will be deleted.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Art

Yes, this should be done via PM. I have no evidence the awards sold by this person are fake. If anyone has issues with any item for sale here, feel free to post a comment expanding on why you consider the item is fake. Remember, it's up to the buyer to do their own due diligence when considering a purchase. Particularly rare collectibles that are notorious for being faked. Posts which call the authenticity of an item posted forsale here into question and pose no way for a seller to respond will be deleted.

Just so everyone knows (so there's no confusion)...

Andrew6767 felt that he was wronged by an eBay seller who happens to also be part of this forum over several awards that Andrew6767 felt were fake. That eBay seller and member of this forum denied these charges and thus there has been a "he said - he said" disagreement between the two parties OFF THIS FORUM.

Please note: these sales (between Andrew6767 and the seller) took place OFF THIS FORUM via eBay and have nothing to do with this forum. When asked to moderate between the two parties, we declined to do so since it was not in the interest of this forum because:

1. The transaction took place OFF THIS FORUM (see a trend?) involving one forum member and someone not part of this forum

2. The eBay seller has acted reputably ON THIS FORUM in both posts and sales.

Thus, why the interest in this particular Homeland 3rd group, since it too was sold off this forum?

The differences are this:

1. The Homeland 3rd was originally sold ON THIS FORUM by a forum member

2. The Homeland 3rd was bought ON THIS FORUM by a forum member

3. The Red Star and Homeland group was sold to a member of this forum (a dealer)

4. And this dealer sold it to yet another member of this forum.

5. Our major concern is that this forum member has not acted reputably towards other members of this forum both on and off the forum. If the forum member has made one fake group, how many others that he has also sold ON THIS FORUM are fake???

Between Steps 2 and 3, the original award was added to, with an additional award, a (now) clearly fake document, and other assorted medals and badges - BY A MEMBER OF THIS FORUM - and then re-sold to not one, but TWO members of this forum.

On one hand, we have an eBay disagreement with one person who was a member of this forum and someone who wasn't. On the other, we have a clear ATTEMPT TO DECIEVE by a member of this forum to other members of this forum with an award PURCHASED ON THIS FORUM.

This isn't a disagreement where one party says they sold something real, and the other said it was fake...this is a clear case of someone deceitfully attempting to violate other Soviet collectors by clearly making a fantasy group.

This thread is about ONE TOPIC AND ONE TOPIC ONLY - that is, a bad Homeland 3rd group. IT IS NOT ABOUT IF SOMEONE FELT THEY WERE WRONGED ON EBAY by someone who happens to be a member of this forum (yes, that IS bad and we DO abhor it). That should be handled away from this forum, and both people in the dilemma should be given a chance to give their sides of the story (and yes, I have heard both sides and both sides have legitimate complaints against the other...no one side is saintly...)

Thanks for reading and understanding.

Dave

[alnigi]

Hi Dave I totally agree with you
(This thread is about ONE TOPIC AND ONE TOPIC ONLY - that is, a bad Homeland 3rd group. IT IS NOT ABOUT IF SOMEONE FELT THEY WERE WRONGED ON EBAY by someone who happens to be a member of this forum (yes, that IS bad and we DO abhor it). That should be handled away from this forum, and both people in the dilemma should be given a chance to give their sides of the story (and yes, I have heard both sides and both sides have legitimate complaints against the other...no one side is saintly...)
Bu during this long conversation one question!!!!!Not clearly to me
Haw you can be member of this forum and rip off others EBay or privately and still has a voce on the forum and everything tip top

[andrew6767]

Originally Posted by Dave

Andrew6767 felt that he was wronged by an eBay seller who happens to also be part of this forum over several awards that Andrew6767 felt were fake. That eBay seller and member of this forum denied these charges and thus there has been a "he said - he said" disagreement between the two parties OFF THIS FORUM.

Lets get a few things straight here Dave , I dont appreciate misinformation being posted about me , so I will change my view of not saying anymore on the topic to get some facts down as it appears the administration of this site now appear to be keen to make me out as some insignificant pest who should be swatted away at every given opportunity.

1. I dont feel I was wronged , I know I was wronged.

The seller advertised and auctioned medals under original period items , not reproductions.

Item # Item Title Qty Price Subtotal
6510065615 Soviet Medal Defence of Moscow !!! 1 $17.45 USD $17.45 USD
6510066164 Soviet Medal Liberation of Warsaw typ1 1 $14.50 USD $14.50 USD
6510502865 Soviet Medal Defence of Caucasus !!! 1 $10.00 USD $10.00 USD


There has not been any " he said -he said " , I havent spoken to this person since he changed his email address after he ripped me off. Lets also remember here that he changed his Ebay user name 3 times to try and avoid me so he could go back to ripping people off. This was my introduction to Soviet Medal collecting - a fellow collector contacted me and alerted me that this person was selling fakes as originals and ripping me off and that I should report him to Ebay immediately and take action through Paypal to recover my money. He also told me that a large number of people had been duped by this guy and the more complaints the better.

He also referred me to this forum , a place he said , where only genuine collectors got together to discuss soviet awards. After a brief period as a member , I was alarmed to see that the very person that had ripped me off was in fact a member here ! Naturally , I immediately informed Art who told me he would deal with it. At no time at all has Art or any other Moderator of this website asked me to present any evidence I had in relation to this matter In fact , I had a post deleted because I had a go at him on the forum.

When asked to moderate between the two parties, we declined to do so since it was not in the interest of this forum

I didnt ask you to moderate anything , I informed you that a member here was a known scammer.

It now seems that this forum has officially made a statement that they will give refuge to any criminal that wishes to defraud people on Ebay , as long as they dont defraud anyone here. Does this forum really want the reputation as the " South America " of collecting forums that harbours crooks because they ONLY rip off people on Ebay ?

If you think that is " not in the interests of the forum " , I would suggest you rethink whether it is or not.

1. The transaction took place OFF THIS FORUM (see a trend?) involving one forum member and someone not part of this forum

Sure can see a trend. The order for service to the Homeland was purchased by Bob from a dealer. If we are to follow this forums inconsistant policies , that would mean that this transaction has absolutely nothing to do with this forum and should be sorted out by the seller and the buyer.

That would be a consistant policy based on the interpretations posted by both yourself and Art in this thread.

2. The eBay seller has acted reputably ON THIS FORUM in both posts and sales.

I dont know why you call him the Ebay seller. He has sold about 6 items on this forum in recent months , the cheapest being $100 I believe. I sincerely hope that the items he sold to members here are genuine , at face value I would agree that they appear to be. But it doesnt change the fact that he deliberately and knowingly sold fake medals to me. And even if one single item was a fake out of the 6 or so , a member here has been ripped off.

So I would hope very much that you are 100% sure that this person has completely changed in the 2 years since deceiving me and is now a fine upstanding pillar of society that has seen the error of his ways. I personally find it unlikely and also resent the fact that he is even still here. Personally , I would have the magnifying glass out if I purchased anything from him.

5. Our major concern is that this forum member has not acted reputably towards other members of this forum both on and off the forum. If the forum member has made one fake group, how many others that he has also sold ON THIS FORUM are fake???

The same questions one would think would be asked about the person in my case.

Originally Posted by Dave

" has not acted reputably towards other members of this forum both on and off the forum "

Hang on , isnt this what the person did in my case ? Why do we have 2sets of rules here ? If it wasnt such a serious issue I could only laugh at the contradictions I am seeing here.

On one hand, we have an eBay disagreement with one person who was a member of this forum and someone who wasn't. On the other, we have a clear ATTEMPT TO DECIEVE by a member of this forum to other members of this forum with an award PURCHASED ON THIS FORUM.

In my case we also have a , quote from your own words " clear ATTEMPT TO DECIEVE by a member of this forum ".

Again , the hypocrisy here is a joke. And I know I am not alone in my opinion on this.

This isn't a disagreement where one party says they sold something real, and the other said it was fake...this is a clear case of someone deceitfully attempting to violate other Soviet collectors by clearly making a fantasy group.

" this is a clear case of someone deceitfully attempting to violate other Soviet collectors " - surprise surprise , again , a very good description of what happened to me.

IT IS NOT ABOUT IF SOMEONE FELT THEY WERE WRONGED ON EBAY by someone who happens to be a member of this forum (yes, that IS bad and we DO abhor it).

Again Dave , you seek to trivialise my case by claiming I felt wronged , the fact is I was deceived and ripped off. Would you trivialise it as much if it happened to you ? Abhor it , yet endorse it at the sme time ?

Now if I sell you a claimed genuine item and you get a fake delivered to you , do you think you would feel " wronged " ? It was admitted that the items were not genuine at the end of the investigation by Paypal , Paypals reason for not refunding me was that the seller did not state " this item is genuine " in the body of the advert. Obviously , this is so ridiculous I called paypal on it and they refunded me. Anyone else would do the same on claim so ridiculous by a company the size of paypal.

That should be handled away from this forum, and both people in the dilemma should be given a chance to give their sides of the story (and yes, I have heard both sides and both sides have legitimate complaints against the other...no one side is saintly...)

Well , thats a total lie. Sorry , I dont like to call people liars but you have not heard my side of the story at all. Please tell me when I have ever presented my case to you on this matter ? And what the hell is " no one side is saintly ? !! Apart from being ripped off , I now have to wear claims from moderators from this site that I am somehow to blame because some dirty mongrel ripped ME off ? You have got to be kidding.

It would seem that as a small occasional collector I am a " nobody " when it comes to the big boys games here and apart from having being ripped off buy a deliberate faker , I now have to sit through the insults of having a Moderator tell me I am not " saintly " ?

Lets have a look at the facts here - I did the right thing by reporting this person to Art so that no other person had to go through getting ripped off like I did.

I have NEVER been asked by Art or any other Moderator on this site to provide proof or full information on this matter , if I had , there would have been more than enough evidence required to warrant banning his account from the site as soon as it was reported

The whole case got swept under the carpet for some reason , yet now we have a higher profile case ( between a dealer and a buyer which supposedly isnt the forums business under the " swinging in the breeze policies we have here " )but was once owned by a Moderator we see the whole admin team jump in to action.

I can tell you one thing for a fact , this whole incident is being watched by a large number of people and so far the polices which have been forward by both yourself and Art appear to show a bias as to whatever suits you at the time. Unless this site wants to be known as a administration endorsed haven for ebay rippers , I would suggest this site introduces a clear and defined policy in regards to fraudulant activity , a policy that is set in concrete as to what happens to members that are or have engaged in fradulant or dishonest activity. As it stands , we have a policy of whatever suits at the time which just isnt good enough. The fact that not a single staff member here ever asked me to produce all my proof and documentation in the matter shows the lack of interest in that a fraudster was on the site.

Even Ebay take matters like this more serious than what this site does to protect its membership , any duty of care is only extended here when it suits.

Balls in your court and the crowd is watching , 00-15.

[EricFG]

This is escalating into something big. Two distinct issues arising and tempers flaring.
I'm reading, with interest and spinning head.
I'd suggest all parties relax just a little and let things run their course.
Since we are all well behaved, intelligent gentlemen here I hope we can come to some sort of conclusion that will be accepteable and amiable for the most part.

Waiting for Santa (I've been good this year, I promise),
Eric :)