My Soviet Patch Collection

[centaur32]

destanik,
Thanks for your thoughts. I thought that it was pretty clear that I value experience. I am not challenging any experienced collector's right to declare a piece of insignia non-genuine. I'm just saying that if a collector judges a piece a "fake", "fantasy" piece, whatever, just tell the rest of us the reason for the judgement so that the rest of us learn how to determine the validity of a piece. Don't keep this knowledge to yourselves....share it!

Look Guys....I'm not trying to step on anyone's toes here, or offend anyone. I've been collecting, in another area, for more than fifty years and if I've learned anything I've learned, Never Say Never. I've also seen pieces of insignia declared not genuine, which later was disproved.

OK, I accept that if I were to present a new and, perhaps radically different insignia as genuine, then, naturally, I should present evidence of its validity. Equally, if you condemn a piece of insignia as not genuine, then, the burden of proof rests with you. If it works for one, why not the other?

Let's not get our knickers in a twist over all this guys. Remember....debate IS healthy.

Our hobby is indeed a facinating one and I presume that we're members of this forum to share our thoughts, opinions and knowledge on the subject, or have I got it wrong?
Thanks,
Jim

[desantnik]

Jim, to which piece are you referring - the grey/black background airborne insignia?

If so, the acknowledged official VDV (airborne forces) patch is light blue felt-like cloth (goluboi) with yellow "plastic-light" highlights. It was worn on parade, garrison, and field uniforms and more frequently, removed from wear in combat. So, there are no camo, subdued, "combat-versions" of the patch (which I assume this is trying to be).

In 20 years of collecting (and hanging around ex-Soviet airborne and special forces personnel of various organizations and ministries) I've only seen light blue patches (and fakes of these too, especially embroidered ones from Pakistan, I believe). Now within only the last few years other colors (dark blue supposedly for KGB, green for Border Troops, and now this black/charcoal one, etc) have crept up on eBay. Again, I've been visiting collectors clubs across the former Soviet Union for 20 years and never seen such patches different from the light blue ones. There are dembel-modified ones, but these are easy to pick out and to an individual, demobilizing soldier's taste.

The Soviet Union did not value individuality or sticking out from the crowd. Thus, you don't see the plethora of unit patches in other, especially Western armies. Even their spetsnaz forces didn't wear identifying insignia apart from regular airborne. Also, smaller-sized non-VDV organizations (like KGB or Border Guards) would hardly warrant a production run of their own patches. Soviet airborne-qualified naval infantry did NOT have their own patch, for example, only wore the standard VDV badge.

Finally, show me a reference, regulation, photo, or any evidence of these patches being worn/accepted as official.

If I present an airborne patch with Bozo the Clown on it, the burden of proof to prove its veracity is on me, not a 20-year old, established collecting community.

[centaur32]

desantnik,
My comments so far have not been in defense of, or concerned with any particular patch. They have been general in nature.

Thank you for your information regarding the only known official VDV patch. That's the sort of stuff I'm talking about. Nevertheless, it would be good for us less experienced Soviet collectors if we could be directed to published illustrated orders, directives, regulations, etc. That is, of course, IF such publications exist and obtainable.
Thanks,
Jim

[desantnik]

Jim, there uniform collectors here may be able to point you in a direction, but most people collect WWII and later Cold War stuff isn't as in demand.

There exist several late Soviet uniform regulations with illustrations and unit wall-type posters depicting proper uniform wear, measurements, patch identification, etc. that show up on eBay occasionally and maybe even some subscribers would be willing to part with one.

[DougD]

Jim,

Welcome to the forum. I have to say that in general I agree with you; non-specific "it's a fake" or "no good" descriptions do not help anyone. As moderator I have asked in the past for people to be more specific in expressing concerns or doubts about an item posted on the forum...there are some so called experts who say an item is fake simply because they have never seen one...so, overall, I agree with you.

However, there is also a large 'wave' of invented Soviet items on E-bay that show up and simply require an "e-bay fantasy" tag...one of the most popular is the mixing and matching of soviet branch colors on arm patches; these are simply invented by sellers to sell in bulk. These items are not often argued in detail (the balance as you say) as perhaps an M1940 Generals tunic on E-bay might get.

If you want to get more info on patches, pick up 'Soviet Arm Badges' by Stepanov, who shows all the variants and designs, etc. Best way to decide what is real and what is e-bay fantasy.

DougD

[pastfinder]

Originally Posted by DougD

Jim,

Welcome to the forum. I have to say that in general I agree with you; non-specific "it's a fake" or "no good" descriptions do not help anyone. As moderator I have asked in the past for people to be more specific in expressing concerns or doubts about an item posted on the forum...there are some so called experts who say an item is fake simply because they have never seen one...so, overall, I agree with you.

However, there is also a large 'wave' of invented Soviet items on E-bay that show up and simply require an "e-bay fantasy" tag...one of the most popular is the mixing and matching of soviet branch colors on arm patches; these are simply invented by sellers to sell in bulk. These items are not often argued in detail (the balance as you say) as perhaps an M1940 Generals tunic on E-bay might get.

If you want to get more info on patches, pick up 'Soviet Arm Badges' by Stepanov, who shows all the variants and designs, etc. Best way to decide what is real and what is e-bay fantasy.

DougD

As an owner of Col. Stepanov's book, I can say it is a great reference. The book lacks, however, any inclusion of Soviet naval patches, or marine-related patches, and non-military organization patches. I have heard that he has written two additional books on the subject, but have not seen them. Does anyone have them or know of them?

[centaur32]

desantnik

G'day Paul,
Thanks for your recommendations regarding the wall posters. I have managed to find a couple and they are on the way to me now. I have been told that these wall posters were a supplement to the Soviet Army Order of Battle. Can you confirm this?

I recently noticed differences in the detail of the parachute canopy and the size of the Soviet Stars on a couple of the VDV patches in my collection (See Below). I presume that these minor differences are just manufacturers' variations. However, I would be grateful for your comments regarding them.
Regards,
Jim :confused:

[centaur32]

DougD,
Thanks for your welcome, views, and support.

I have Alexey Stepanov's book and it is, without doubt, it is the best reference on Soviet Army patches that I have found to date. Unfortunately, it is not as comprehensive as I would like.

Yes, I am acutely aware of the fantasy Soviet patches being offered on ebay and presumably elsewhere. It sure would be nice to have the knowledge to sort the good from the phoney.

Do you know of any available reference that states precisely which specialities are authorized for which Department, e.g., is a Motor Transport design on a cornflower blue (KGB) base authorized, or an Armour design on a green base (Border Troops)? I mean; How many of which Soviet Army specialty patches were authorized in which colours?

'moskovite' seems to have a handle on what is what regarding authiorized Soviet Army patches. Maybe he could let me know what he knows on this question. Any assistance that you, or any other member, can provide to me on this subject would be very much appreciated.

Thanks & regards,
Jim

[desantnik]

Originally Posted by centaur32

desantnik

I have been told that these wall posters were a supplement to the Soviet Army Order of Battle. Can you confirm this?

I presume that these minor differences are just manufacturers' variations. :

I don't understand your first question. Wall posters were intended to show proper uniform wear and identification to a unit's personnel. Order of Battle is usually a line-and-block chart showing an army's or unit's composition. I don't see a correlation between the two.

Question #2 - yes. These were made in the gajillions by many factories.

[pastfinder]

Originally Posted by desantnik

I don't understand your first question. Wall posters were intended to show proper uniform wear and identification to a unit's personnel. Order of Battle is usually a line-and-block chart showing an army's or unit's composition. I don't see a correlation between the two.

Question #2 - yes. These were made in the gajillions by many factories.

One of these posters is in an older book of mine, Russian Military Power, in the back. It only features the most common patches, ie. only 14 total. I also have an original printing of the Soviet uniform guide from 1988 which features 16 patches, as well as the naval patches and some of the training/service stripes. This, outside of Stepanov's book, is the best I have for Soviet patches.