Red Star. - Page 9

Robert Pierce · 10-01-2003, 02:02 AM

Thank you, Alanirvine.

I have already taken that first step in buying the book you referred to. It is coming in the mail. I'm really enjoying this new field of collecting and find it very interesting. I have already purchased a few other pieces such as an Order of the Patriotic War 2nd class and an Order of the Red Banner, both WWll-issue. I'll post them here when I receive them. I think I bought some post-war defense medals off of eBay without really knowing what I was doing. When I get McDaniel's book I'll be able to do some research on them and determine whether or not they are WWll-era pieces. BTW, I'm trying to collect only WWll pieces. Thanks again for the reply. I appreciate the helping hand.:)

Robert

HuliganRS · 10-01-2003, 08:31 AM

Robert,

Welcome!

Yes, your Red Star is a WWII issue. Infect S/N below 1,000 are more collectable and a bit higher priced.

Have you decided what you want to collect? By that I mean: Do you want to collect by types & variations or just one example of every medal?

This forum has a wealth of information and advanced collectors that are always available to help. If you do have a question, do use the search feature... Chances are someone already asked the question and it was discussed in detail.

Be careful buying @ eBay. If you see a high end or expensive award just ask for the opinion of others and save yourself from being burned!

Other that that, enjoy! This is a great area to collect!!!

Rusty.

new world · 10-01-2003, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HuliganRS
...

Yes, your Red Star is a WWII issue. Infect S/N below 1,000 are more collectable and a bit higher priced.

... Rusty.

Rusty,

Did you mean to say "SN under 1,000,000"?

Red Stars under 1,000 are extremely collectable and would cost you not just a bit higher, but many thousnds $$$ higher. :)

William

HuliganRS · 10-01-2003, 03:36 PM

:)

At least now I know someone is reading my posts! ;)

Rusty.

Dave · 10-01-2003, 09:08 PM

Robert:

Welcome to the forum!

We were all novices at collecting at one point or another... Some just longer ago than others. :)

Other than McDaniel's book, this forum is the best source for general award knowledge you can have! Later on down the road, we can suggest many more books, etc., to sink your money into. :)

Happy hunting-

--Dave

Robert Pierce · 10-01-2003, 11:10 PM

Thanks, everyone.:)
To answer Rusty's question on how I am going to start collecting, I'd have to say that I intend on collecting different assorted medals and orders for now. Maybe different variations in the future. I've already picked up four or five Red Stars, two of which have serail numbers below 1,000,000. The others are well below 2,800,000. Trying to stay with WWll-ear pieces as a whole.
I've seen many documents offered on many different sites and don't know enough yet about them to tell the authentic from the forgeries. So I'll just stear clear until I get educated.
I intend on finding the four 'hero city' defense medals that are of WWll vintage. I can see the differences in the suspension rings of the war-era pieces compared to the 'shiny' metal of the medals made in the 70's, etc.
I like the Soviet's use of genuine silver and GOLD in their upper-end pieces. The Order of Lenin is really a nice piece and one that I can see adding to my collection. Even the gold in the 1st Class Patriotic War Order is something. And the Order of Glory 1st Class.
There is a question I have for the advanced collectors of the forum. What reference material is available to us today that narrows down finding out what serial numbers determine WWll-era Orders/medals? I have been told, as I said previously, the Red Stars over 2,800,000 are considered post-war. What about for the rest of the Orders? One dealer told me he has a document with an Order of the Red Banner with the serial number of 244,044. The date of issue in the document is May 21, 1945 and of course the serial number in the document corresponds with the number on the Order. I won an Order of the Red Banner off of eBay that has the serial number of 243,379 and felt that it was within the WWll-issue timeframe. The Soviets declared their victory over the Germans on May 9, 1945. So I assumed that there were possibly hundreds, maybe thousands of Orders awarded after the fighting was over and the smoke cleared to honor recorded exploits during the war-years. In the document book itself, wouldn't it include all the awards that a certain individual accrued during the war? Or would there be a seperate document book issued for each award?
I know I've thrown out a lot of questions to you. Basics for you I'm sure. I have to start somewhere. I see document books on eBay with only one Order in it; others with several. One particular book I saw had the date of issue for the Order on the right side of the book and the date of account being years before on the left page of the book. Is this common? Issue dates long after the war was over? And just for one award?

I'll stop for now. This is enough to 'chew on.'

I need a lot of education. I enjoy the study coupled with the physical collectibles themselves. Love history.

Best regards.
Robert

Dave · 10-02-2003, 05:30 AM

Robert:

Here's a few answers to some of your questions:

"I've seen many documents offered on many different sites and don't know enough yet about them to tell the authentic from the forgeries."

I think this is a relatively good idea, though, there are a few dealers out there whose items you can trust fully for authenticity. I can give you their names if you'll PM me.

"What reference material is available to us today that narrows down finding out what serial numbers determine WWll-era Orders/medals?"

There is a book, by Anatoli Kutsenko entitled "Orders of the USSR" ("Ordena SSSR" in cyrillic). That's really the only book that gives serial numbers with dates of award. That book, like all good books, it seems, was only printed in a small batch (1000 copies) and thus, are somewhat difficult to find. However, you can occasionally find them on eBay. I would say that if you can buy a copy for under $100, you're doing well (I paid $105 for mine).

With that said, one note of caution that I have is to recommend that you not get "wrapped around the axle" when it comes to serial numbers. While yes, there is a range of numbers which were awarded prior to August 1945 (the actual end of WW2 for the Soviets) there are also many awards given post-war for wartime acts. For example, I have a Patriotic War, 1st class, to a tankist who lost both legs in combat in 1943. He was recommended for the award in 1945, and it was finally approved in 1947! A great award for combat heroism, but awarded two years after the fighting stopped!

Additionally, the reason I never really worry too much about the serial numbers is the fact that a good portion of Red Stars, Red Banners, Lenins and Military Merit medals awarded from 1944 onwards are long service awards. While that may thirll some people, I think most of us would agree that a 25-year service award to an administration officer in Leningrad is relatively less exciting than an award given to someone fighting on the frontlines! :)

"So I assumed that there were possibly hundreds, maybe thousands of Orders awarded after the fighting was over and the smoke cleared to honor recorded exploits during the war-years."

That's true. Awards for WW2 actions were being given out all the way up through 1992. I've had a Glory 3rd awarded in 1991 for actions in WW2, and quite a number of awards from the 50's and 60's with citations for actions during the War. Some awards just took a long time to catch up to people!

"In the document book itself, wouldn't it include all the awards that a certain individual accrued during the war? Or would there be a seperate document book issued for each award?"

Yes and No. When an officer or soldier was discharged after the War, or their paperwork was finally straightened out for the career guys, they would be awarded an order book (or the one for medals, if the didn't have orders) which would list all their orders and medals awarded up to that time. The majority of these award books date from 1946 through 1947. They would list all awards given up to that time.

When a person received another award, it would be presented with another order book. The person could then go and have that award entered into his first order book, or he could simply keep the second order book. I've had groups with upwards to five separate order books! Sometimes as well, the person would have their wartime awards listed in the new order book, though that's not quite as common, and is always a little suspicious to me. :)

"One particular book I saw had the date of issue for the Order on the right side of the book and the date of account being years before on the left page of the book. Is this common? Issue dates long after the war was over? And just for one award?"

Yes, that did happen. See my above account. However, unless you know the reputation of the dealer, always be wary of what's sold on eBay... There's some good stuff on there, but at the same time, that's where a lot of fake groups get peddled! The best remedy: Education. :)

Please feel free to PM me with any other questions you may have.

--Dave

Nota Bene · 10-02-2003, 05:11 PM

Robert,

Speaking about education, here's my two kopecks :) - don't forget the Fakes section of this forum, it has already saved a lot of collectors a lot of $$$ and agravation.

Alexei

HuliganRS · 11-20-2003, 08:11 PM

Here's an X-tra super ORS.

It's missing "Dvor", screw post base, thiner than all other Red Stars and has a 3mm screwpost.

This is my newest and rarest Red Star.

Enjoy,

Rusty.

rboomsma · 01-17-2004, 07:57 PM

Hello All

Today I think I found one heck of a good find in a 2nd hand junk store.

I checked Paul's book and several websites, and I think I got an Order of the Red star Var 2 large curved Mondvor ser #8382
Everything looks right on the medal.

What say you all.

10-01-2003, 08:31 AM	#82
HuliganRS Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Illinois - U.S.A. Age: 46 Posts: 1,023	Robert, Welcome! Yes, your Red Star is a WWII issue. Infect S/N below 1,000 are more collectable and a bit higher priced. Have you decided what you want to collect? By that I mean: Do you want to collect by types & variations or just one example of every medal? This forum has a wealth of information and advanced collectors that are always available to help. If you do have a question, do use the search feature... Chances are someone already asked the question and it was discussed in detail. Be careful buying @ eBay. If you see a high end or expensive award just ask for the opinion of others and save yourself from being burned! Other that that, enjoy! This is a great area to collect!!! Rusty. __________________ "Be civil to all, sociable to many, familiar with few, friend to one, enemy to none." Benjamin Franklin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Member #193

10-01-2003, 03:36 PM	#84
HuliganRS Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Illinois - U.S.A. Age: 46 Posts: 1,023	:) At least now I know someone is reading my posts! ;) Rusty. __________________ "Be civil to all, sociable to many, familiar with few, friend to one, enemy to none." Benjamin Franklin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Member #193

10-01-2003, 02:02 AM	#81
Robert Pierce Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Benton City, Washington State, USA Age: 74 Posts: 32	Thank you, Alanirvine. I have already taken that first step in buying the book you referred to. It is coming in the mail. I'm really enjoying this new field of collecting and find it very interesting. I have already purchased a few other pieces such as an Order of the Patriotic War 2nd class and an Order of the Red Banner, both WWll-issue. I'll post them here when I receive them. I think I bought some post-war defense medals off of eBay without really knowing what I was doing. When I get McDaniel's book I'll be able to do some research on them and determine whether or not they are WWll-era pieces. BTW, I'm trying to collect only WWll pieces. Thanks again for the reply. I appreciate the helping hand.:) Robert

10-01-2003, 09:08 PM	#85
Dave Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: California Age: 49 Posts: 700	Robert: Welcome to the forum! We were all novices at collecting at one point or another... Some just longer ago than others. :) Other than McDaniel's book, this forum is the best source for general award knowledge you can have! Later on down the road, we can suggest many more books, etc., to sink your money into. :) Happy hunting- --Dave

10-01-2003, 11:10 PM	#86
Robert Pierce Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Benton City, Washington State, USA Age: 74 Posts: 32	Thanks, everyone.:) To answer Rusty's question on how I am going to start collecting, I'd have to say that I intend on collecting different assorted medals and orders for now. Maybe different variations in the future. I've already picked up four or five Red Stars, two of which have serail numbers below 1,000,000. The others are well below 2,800,000. Trying to stay with WWll-ear pieces as a whole. I've seen many documents offered on many different sites and don't know enough yet about them to tell the authentic from the forgeries. So I'll just stear clear until I get educated. I intend on finding the four 'hero city' defense medals that are of WWll vintage. I can see the differences in the suspension rings of the war-era pieces compared to the 'shiny' metal of the medals made in the 70's, etc. I like the Soviet's use of genuine silver and GOLD in their upper-end pieces. The Order of Lenin is really a nice piece and one that I can see adding to my collection. Even the gold in the 1st Class Patriotic War Order is something. And the Order of Glory 1st Class. There is a question I have for the advanced collectors of the forum. What reference material is available to us today that narrows down finding out what serial numbers determine WWll-era Orders/medals? I have been told, as I said previously, the Red Stars over 2,800,000 are considered post-war. What about for the rest of the Orders? One dealer told me he has a document with an Order of the Red Banner with the serial number of 244,044. The date of issue in the document is May 21, 1945 and of course the serial number in the document corresponds with the number on the Order. I won an Order of the Red Banner off of eBay that has the serial number of 243,379 and felt that it was within the WWll-issue timeframe. The Soviets declared their victory over the Germans on May 9, 1945. So I assumed that there were possibly hundreds, maybe thousands of Orders awarded after the fighting was over and the smoke cleared to honor recorded exploits during the war-years. In the document book itself, wouldn't it include all the awards that a certain individual accrued during the war? Or would there be a seperate document book issued for each award? I know I've thrown out a lot of questions to you. Basics for you I'm sure. I have to start somewhere. I see document books on eBay with only one Order in it; others with several. One particular book I saw had the date of issue for the Order on the right side of the book and the date of account being years before on the left page of the book. Is this common? Issue dates long after the war was over? And just for one award? I'll stop for now. This is enough to 'chew on.' I need a lot of education. I enjoy the study coupled with the physical collectibles themselves. Love history. Best regards. Robert

10-02-2003, 05:30 AM	#87
Dave Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: California Age: 49 Posts: 700	Robert: Here's a few answers to some of your questions: "I've seen many documents offered on many different sites and don't know enough yet about them to tell the authentic from the forgeries." I think this is a relatively good idea, though, there are a few dealers out there whose items you can trust fully for authenticity. I can give you their names if you'll PM me. "What reference material is available to us today that narrows down finding out what serial numbers determine WWll-era Orders/medals?" There is a book, by Anatoli Kutsenko entitled "Orders of the USSR" ("Ordena SSSR" in cyrillic). That's really the only book that gives serial numbers with dates of award. That book, like all good books, it seems, was only printed in a small batch (1000 copies) and thus, are somewhat difficult to find. However, you can occasionally find them on eBay. I would say that if you can buy a copy for under $100, you're doing well (I paid $105 for mine). With that said, one note of caution that I have is to recommend that you not get "wrapped around the axle" when it comes to serial numbers. While yes, there is a range of numbers which were awarded prior to August 1945 (the actual end of WW2 for the Soviets) there are also many awards given post-war for wartime acts. For example, I have a Patriotic War, 1st class, to a tankist who lost both legs in combat in 1943. He was recommended for the award in 1945, and it was finally approved in 1947! A great award for combat heroism, but awarded two years after the fighting stopped! Additionally, the reason I never really worry too much about the serial numbers is the fact that a good portion of Red Stars, Red Banners, Lenins and Military Merit medals awarded from 1944 onwards are long service awards. While that may thirll some people, I think most of us would agree that a 25-year service award to an administration officer in Leningrad is relatively less exciting than an award given to someone fighting on the frontlines! :) "So I assumed that there were possibly hundreds, maybe thousands of Orders awarded after the fighting was over and the smoke cleared to honor recorded exploits during the war-years." That's true. Awards for WW2 actions were being given out all the way up through 1992. I've had a Glory 3rd awarded in 1991 for actions in WW2, and quite a number of awards from the 50's and 60's with citations for actions during the War. Some awards just took a long time to catch up to people! "In the document book itself, wouldn't it include all the awards that a certain individual accrued during the war? Or would there be a seperate document book issued for each award?" Yes and No. When an officer or soldier was discharged after the War, or their paperwork was finally straightened out for the career guys, they would be awarded an order book (or the one for medals, if the didn't have orders) which would list all their orders and medals awarded up to that time. The majority of these award books date from 1946 through 1947. They would list all awards given up to that time. When a person received another award, it would be presented with another order book. The person could then go and have that award entered into his first order book, or he could simply keep the second order book. I've had groups with upwards to five separate order books! Sometimes as well, the person would have their wartime awards listed in the new order book, though that's not quite as common, and is always a little suspicious to me. :) "One particular book I saw had the date of issue for the Order on the right side of the book and the date of account being years before on the left page of the book. Is this common? Issue dates long after the war was over? And just for one award?" Yes, that did happen. See my above account. However, unless you know the reputation of the dealer, always be wary of what's sold on eBay... There's some good stuff on there, but at the same time, that's where a lot of fake groups get peddled! The best remedy: Education. :) Please feel free to PM me with any other questions you may have. --Dave

10-02-2003, 05:11 PM	#88
Nota Bene Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: New York USA Posts: 2,296	Robert, Speaking about education, here's my two kopecks :) - don't forget the Fakes section of this forum, it has already saved a lot of collectors a lot of $$$ and agravation. Alexei

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