"KGB" Generals Uniforms

[DougD]

Due to alot of confusion to the actual point of the last thread witht he same title I deleted the entire thing.

However, that being said, its an interesting topic these "KGB" generals uniforms that are sold by some.

What are the feelings of the foum on these? I have my opinion, one I have been working on since first talking with Shawn back in 1994. But, I want to wait to hear what others think.

If someone has it, post a jpeg of one of those "KGB Generals" parade caps that are around.

DougD

[Dave]

Here ya go... Now appearing by request... A gen-u-ine KGB general's hat! Bought by yours truly in Moscow (on Izmailova!) so therefore it HAD to be real. Right??? Right..? Right...... ;)

--Dave

[vikingraider1]

Here's the little blighter, taken from everybodys favourite publication.

A very tricky subject which I will attempt to give my two bobs worth:

My gut feeling is that there may have been these M1969 KGB Generals Caps, but the amount of fakes and lack of photographic evidence still leaves me inclined to think that they never existed.

Take for example the KGB Border Guard generals caps. There were I think about two confirmed generals who would have worn this model (M1969) cap but there are hundreds on the market today which are obviously fake. This does not mean that originals don't exist but there are slim chances of owning originals.

Personally I think the lack of photographic evidence speaks for itself. I am aware that the KGB was a secretive organisation but there must be some photogrpahic evidence of the caps being worn SOMEWHERE. Why were they not evident at the May Day or other parades?

They fit the criteria for Military generals caps with the correct coloured band, and laurel leaf embroidery but there are far too many of them on the market to compared to the actual number of KGB generals. Granted that they are probably being produced by Ukranian companies but the possibility of there being a genuine out there diminishes with every fake that is produced.

I am not totally ruling it out but I will remain sceptical until I see photographic evidence.

[vikingraider1]

Dave,
Don't take this the wrong way but I think the embroidery on the peak of the cap looks very suspect indeed. It is similar to a uniform that was posted on this forum a couple of months ago and looked very suspect indeed. The leaves are spaced too far apart giving it a scrawney appearance. Compare it to the photo I posted below showing the leaves much closer together.

[vikingraider1]

Notice the spacing of the leaves on this generals cap compared to your KGB cap

[Dave]

Originally posted by vikingraider1
Dave,
Don't take this the wrong way

No worries! I thought the hat was real at one point, but since reading about them on the forum, I've long lost that opinion of it. :)

--Dave

[charlet]

I'd bend towards Vikingraiders' opinion: nor historians, specialists in militaria of USA and Russia, nor old collectors like you folks shown any pictures, documents of regulation, prototypes of KGB general uniforms...USSR collapsed 11 years ago and still no evidence of such uniforms. I think reasonnable to say they never existed (more facts against than facts in favor).
my opinion, sebastien

[DougD]

....about KGB generals items / uniforms.

1. In 1945 the NKVD switched its generals from royal blue piping ( they had this from 1940 until 1945; therefore there ARE royal blue piped NKVD generals but they are wartime and must be considered ultra rare) to red piping to "blend" with the army generals. Beria himself was made a Marshal of the USSR. There is at least one known example of a named NKVD M1945 parade uniform ( with papers) witht he red piping.

2. No regulations have ever been found to show that this order was reversed and generals of the KGB went back to blue piping.

3. There is a KGB Generals uniform with medals in the KGB museum with RED piping. When asked, the KGB Colonel who ran the museum stated tome that KGB generals wore the same uniforms are army generals, though they would only wear them once or twice a year.

4. There are no photos showing the royal blue piping in use with KGB generals.

5. We have all seen alot of KGB generals caps for sale, too many. Why so few, if any, tunics/ uniforms to go with them? Unless these hats were just being made up in Moscow and Ukraine based on what the fakers think a KGB general would wear.

So, it looks to me like these are fakes, made mostly to sell to tourists, though originally I think they were made to fool colelctors. These hats used to sell for $500 back in 1993 and 1994. I have to confess I had one in my early days of collecting.

The only other possibility, one that Shawn (otlichnik) came up with is that the FSB decided to switch back to royal blue after they took over from the KGB. These hats were made in 1992 for that, so are real, but not Soviet.

DougD

[otlichnik]

Just to clear up, the FSB idea is only a not very likely hypothesis I have. I do not believe at this time that it is true. I believe the all fake story.

To add to Doug's points of what we know.

6. Currently produced M69 (i.e. fake) KGB and Border Guard general's parade and service hats and tunics are avilable for sale from the Ukrainian factory. Therefore we know fakes exist.

7. The FSB (and some of its short lived predcessors) have returned to the royal blue since the M1993 uniform. I myself saw an FSB general in royal blue trimmed M93 service uniform inside the Russian Duma building in November 1999.

8. I have seen one piece of M69 KGB general's gear that MAY have been real. It was a M69 light grey summer tunic for a border guard general. It came with blue pants with green stripe and a green-topped hat. The hat and pants were brand new and likely modern. BUT, the tunic had clear signs of age. Signs that would be very hard to fake. It was in good condition but all of the button holes had subtle button wear, the satin lining at the under arms had the pinkish stains and subtle wear typical of such linings, the inner pocket had obviusly been used to carry stuff in. As the uniform was piped green at collar and cuffs, it was not just a matter of adding fake boards to a uniform from another branch. The aging was not the overall wear and weathering which many people apply on faked WWII uniforms (say by leaving them outside over a winter). It could only happen from many dozens of hours of wear.

So, what is the story??

My conclusions.
- All KGB and BG service and parade uniforms seen so far are fake.
- Fakes are being made and sold today.
- MAYBE the design was an official being developed in the 1990-1992 period. We know from documented cloth patch evidence that work was being done on a new uniform design around 1990 and so maybe the KGB were going to get blue and green uniforms again. Even if this is true, I am sure they were never issued. More likely the design was just a fantasy from the Ukrainian factory in the 1990s when they looked at the blue KGB officer uniforms and red army general's uniforms they were maing and saw a new product to make and sell to collectors.

This leaves the "used" M69 BG general grey summer tunic. Either this is one of the best fakes I ever saw, and one which reqiured huge amounts of work to "wear in". Or, it was a genuine item in which case I would bet my allowance it was some sort of private purchase. Considering that these light grey uniforms were intended for "out of service" or unofficial duties it may have been easier to get away with. Since the tunic in question was for a 3-star BG general it would have been for a very important and powerful person.

By the way, I do not own or have any financial interest in the tunic so I have no interest in defending its authenticity. Bt, it did leave me with that tiny shred of doubt that ALL M69 KGB generals items may not be fake, just 99.999%.

What we desperately need is:

- a genuine colour photo giving evidence of a blue or green KGB general's uniform being worn pre-1991,

- a knowledgeable source (KGB general or uniform department employee) who is willing to speak and answer specific questions,

- other evidence of genuinely worn and aged KGB general's uniforms.

Shawn

[kameli]

KGB General´s cap ???

Here is one more. Sell by a dealer in Estonia. Price 160 euros.


Jussi-Pekka