If you want something done right...do it yourself. - Page 2

Riley1965 · 12-12-2007, 08:17 AM

Everyone is right. You have an amazing talent!!! However, I would mark them on the reverse as a "COPY".

Doc

medals73 · 12-12-2007, 08:26 AM

Lovely things, but also very dangerous. Putting a serial number on them moves them into the deceptive copy territory. Why not leave off the mint information as they weren't made there anyway (= false and fraudulent advertising?) and put a deeply-engraved "COPY" where the serial number would be?

Dat Nguyen · 12-12-2007, 09:52 AM

Hello again,

I handled the two orders pictured above. They are excelent copies. However, unless you are an absolute beginer, there are plenty of clues to indicate that these are copies....expoxy instead of glass enamel for example.

Personally, I would not like the word "COPY" deeply engraved on these reproductions. That would ruin the piece in my opinion.

In term of complexity, these reproductions are the best I've seen.

lampone4 · 12-12-2007, 12:56 PM

what is the translation of "mulyazh"?

What do you mean, Ibaya, with "..ire of russian government.."? Do you know there were problems with the goverment?
I propose a little sign just to "not disturb" the collector :-)

Lapa · 12-12-2007, 12:59 PM

"Mulyazh" means "copy", so, regardless of the language, the meaning remains the same.
I don't see why the Russian government should bother about someone making copies of orders that are technically no longer theirs.

Marc

***desantnik*** · 12-12-2007, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lapa

I don't see why the Russian government should bother about someone making copies of orders that are technically no longer theirs.

Marc, you're using reason again. Rossiyu umom ne ponyat'...

ibaya · 12-12-2007, 02:28 PM

Mulyazh is borrowed from the French moulage, which is a cast reproduction.

The Russian Federation, generally speaking, is the legal heir to the Soviet Union. Until applicable decrees, laws, constitutions, etc, were passed, Soviet laws still applied, and signed treaties honored. Also consider that although Soviet awards were abolished, their wear is still allowed and unauthorized wear is probably still punishable, and Russia has declared such awards as part of the national heritage ... actions which portray the color of ownership and regulation.

I don't know the exact wording of the 1977 regulation change, but a key consideration would be the meaning of "keepsake" ... although the next of kin were allowed to hold on to the decorations, did they just inherit the right of possession and not ownership? This goes towards the technicality of ownership -- the individual and his/her heirs, or the government.

Even if a copy is distinguishable from an authentic piece, lack of any indication otherwise would probably qualify it as a counterfeit. As an analogy, if I drew up a sloppy copy of a dollar bill, I would be guilty of counterfeiting if I did not include disclaimers that it is *not* legal tender, the more prominent disclaimers the better. Imagine what would happen if I, or someone else later on, tried to pass it off as real. The presence of a mint mark itself is an expression of authenticity - either keep the mint mark for details but add a disclaimer, or leave it off. And why not preclude someone with less scruples eventually obtaining the items and trying to pass them off on inexperienced/unsuspecting buyers.

And besides, it is better, as a matter of honesty for past, present and future purposes, to identify a replica as a replica. Who knows, Russia might ask Interpol and other countries to respect their laws and confiscate and prosecute theft of their items of national identity, and not all police or customs are expert at detecting fakes. Save yourselves the hassle ... the disclaimer would be on the back, that would not detract from its presentation as a "filler" piece, right?

As an aside, I recall reading somewhere that the State Mint would get requests for copies from state theatrical companies. Some were sent crude copies, others sent actual decorations with "mulyazh" stamped on them, often with instructions that they be returned afterwards.

Lapa · 12-12-2007, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ibaya

...Some were sent crude copies, others sent actual decorations with "mulyazh" stamped on them, often with instructions that they be returned afterwards.

Ibaya,

Actually, they were engraved "Butaforia" instead of a serial number. The word "Mulyazh" did not appear on them.

Marc

ibaya · 12-12-2007, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lapa

Ibaya,

Actually, they were engraved "Butaforia" instead of a serial number. The word "Mulyazh" did not appear on them.

Marc

"Butaforia" could mean that the item is an expressed copy, not an actual order -- could have been manufactured by something other than the mint. I noticed a Nevsky marked with butaforia on this website, and it did not have a mint mark.

Whatever word they used, they were still clearly identified as unissued copies.

Mahdi · 12-12-2007, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lapa

Ibaya,

Actually, they were engraved "Butaforia" instead of a serial number. The word "Mulyazh" did not appear on them.

Marc

I would love to see scans of such a piece. Anyone?

12-12-2007, 08:17 AM	#11
Riley1965 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 612	If you want something done right...do it yourself. Everyone is right. You have an amazing talent!!! However, I would mark them on the reverse as a "COPY". Doc

12-12-2007, 09:52 AM	#13
Dat Nguyen Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: San Antonio, Texas Age: 58 Posts: 216	"copy" Hello again, I handled the two orders pictured above. They are excelent copies. However, unless you are an absolute beginer, there are plenty of clues to indicate that these are copies....expoxy instead of glass enamel for example. Personally, I would not like the word "COPY" deeply engraved on these reproductions. That would ruin the piece in my opinion. In term of complexity, these reproductions are the best I've seen.

12-12-2007, 02:28 PM	#17
ibaya Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Maryland, USA Age: 54 Posts: 200	Mulyazh is borrowed from the French moulage, which is a cast reproduction. The Russian Federation, generally speaking, is the legal heir to the Soviet Union. Until applicable decrees, laws, constitutions, etc, were passed, Soviet laws still applied, and signed treaties honored. Also consider that although Soviet awards were abolished, their wear is still allowed and unauthorized wear is probably still punishable, and Russia has declared such awards as part of the national heritage ... actions which portray the color of ownership and regulation. I don't know the exact wording of the 1977 regulation change, but a key consideration would be the meaning of "keepsake" ... although the next of kin were allowed to hold on to the decorations, did they just inherit the right of possession and not ownership? This goes towards the technicality of ownership -- the individual and his/her heirs, or the government. Even if a copy is distinguishable from an authentic piece, lack of any indication otherwise would probably qualify it as a counterfeit. As an analogy, if I drew up a sloppy copy of a dollar bill, I would be guilty of counterfeiting if I did not include disclaimers that it is not legal tender, the more prominent disclaimers the better. Imagine what would happen if I, or someone else later on, tried to pass it off as real. The presence of a mint mark itself is an expression of authenticity - either keep the mint mark for details but add a disclaimer, or leave it off. And why not preclude someone with less scruples eventually obtaining the items and trying to pass them off on inexperienced/unsuspecting buyers. And besides, it is better, as a matter of honesty for past, present and future purposes, to identify a replica as a replica. Who knows, Russia might ask Interpol and other countries to respect their laws and confiscate and prosecute theft of their items of national identity, and not all police or customs are expert at detecting fakes. Save yourselves the hassle ... the disclaimer would be on the back, that would not detract from its presentation as a "filler" piece, right? As an aside, I recall reading somewhere that the State Mint would get requests for copies from state theatrical companies. Some were sent crude copies, others sent actual decorations with "mulyazh" stamped on them, often with instructions that they be returned afterwards. Last edited by ibaya; 12-12-2007 at 05:13 PM. Reason: grammar edit

12-12-2007, 08:26 AM	#12
medals73 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Earth, most of the time Posts: 2,016	Lovely things, but also very dangerous. Putting a serial number on them moves them into the deceptive copy territory. Why not leave off the mint information as they weren't made there anyway (= false and fraudulent advertising?) and put a deeply-engraved "COPY" where the serial number would be?

12-12-2007, 12:56 PM	#14
lampone4 New Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 6	what is the translation of "mulyazh"? What do you mean, Ibaya, with "..ire of russian government.."? Do you know there were problems with the goverment? I propose a little sign just to "not disturb" the collector :-)

12-12-2007, 12:59 PM	#15
Lapa Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: St Petersburg, Russia Age: 63 Posts: 2,397	"Mulyazh" means "copy", so, regardless of the language, the meaning remains the same. I don't see why the Russian government should bother about someone making copies of orders that are technically no longer theirs. Marc

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