If you want something done right...do it yourself.

[Dat Nguyen]

Hello Marc,

>>I understand your point of view, but you are simply making things more "dangerous" for collectors by doing so. There will always be some "good soul" ready to somehow obliterate your word "copy", and then be left with a dangerously deceptive fake<<

Let the "buyer beware" and learn about the hobby before buying any medals/orders; it is no more "dangerous" than buying something without inspecting the item first or buying without a return/refund agreement...Mr Lampone made these medals as copies and make no claim of it being as a 'real' when he tries to sell it. Now if I want to buy one and engrave 'copy' deeply into the medal, than it is my choice. I don't think it is fair to ask Mr Lampone to obliterate his very nicely made copies. For example, when I go the the Louvre in Paris and I decide to buy a 'copy' of the Mona Lisa, I don't want the word 'copy' writen on her forehead. Again, these copies are very nice, but there are glaring differences from an original. I personally have never handled a 2nd or 1st Class, but I immediate know that these weren't original when you look at the details. When Mr Lampone finalize his copy of the Order of Victory, does he really have to put the word 'copy' on it???

[Riley1965]

Originally Posted by Lapa

Lampone,

Why not simply engrave the word "Copy" instead of the serial number. That way, no one could remove it and later engrave a fake serial number, then try and pass the order for what it is not.

Marc

I agree 100% with Marc. PLEASE DO NOT Engrave a serial number on it!!! That leads to a VERY slippery slope for an individual passing it on later as GENUINE. A stamped or DEEPLY engraved "COPY" is the ONLY sensible solution. Your copies are BEAUTIFUL!!! I would hate to have your EXCELLENT work stained by the possibility of it later sold as the real deal.

Doc

[medals73]

Sorry. Presented as they are, with fraudulent manufacturer's mark and a illegitimate serial number, these are not copies. They are fakes, dangerous and intentional fakes. To assert otherwise or to make apologies is to become an accessory to the crime.

[Riley1965]

You hit the nail on the head. As nice as they are they are indeed dangerous fakes. Nothing good can come of this. As it's been said...BUYER BEWARE!!!

Doc

[Lapa]

Dat,

I don't have much to add to the previous 2 posts above.

Let's simply compare things that are comparable; orders and paintings are not exactly in the same category in my opinion. If, however, we look at what happens in the numismatic world, you'll find that the standard rule is to deeply stamp on at least one side the word "copy" of any item produced that is similar to the original, in order to avoid any possibility that this item can later on be passed for an original. The British Museum, the Louvre, and basically all other museums that produce and sell copies of numismatic items do stamp them this way. Are we so much better than them that we do not need to do so ourselves?

Marc

[Esteban_cool]

Well, I share Dat´s point. Since Mr. Lampone hasn´t shown any intention of selling their award copies as originals and he is saying from the first post saying they are COPIES, I do not think that it is so bad. And I do not think these are "dangerous and intentional fakes" and of course, not a "crime" and hence apologizing or asserting otherwise is not accesory to it since there is no crime!

For example, if I manufacture an award, sword, firearm, etc., in the most accurate way I can (that means maker´s mark, serial numbers, quality control stamps, you name it) and keep it for myself and have no intention of selling it to other collectors, and my intention is to keep it as a way to see the fruit of my reached skills or if I use it just for reenacting or decore, I think nobody has the right to blame me for it since I will not involve third parties by just showing and explaining how I made it; sharing something one has made or possess for others to wiew and comment it is not neccesary advertising or publicity.

Hence, gentlemen of the jury, my client Mr. Lampone is innocent.

[Lapa]

Originally Posted by Esteban_cool

Well, I share Dat´s point. Since Mr. Lampone hasn´t shown any intention of selling their award copies as originals and he is saying from the first post saying they are COPIES, I do not think that it is so bad. And I do not think these are "dangerous and intentional fakes" and of course, not a "crime" and hence apologizing or asserting otherwise is not accesory to it since there is no crime!

Esteban,

It is not that simple. You are holding a line of thought reminiscent of the NRA's position: "Guns don't kill people, people do".

I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that Mr Lampone is 100% honest. The problem is not there, it lies in the fact that what he produces can then be used to deceive and defraud. If I want to produce the most accurate copy, that is my absolute right; but I also have responsibilities, and in this case, it is to make sure that my creation will not be misused at a later date by someone intent on defrauding others. I am sure that Nack could throw a couple of very valid legal point in this discussion.

Marc

[Dat Nguyen]

>>Sorry. Presented as they are, with fraudulent manufacturer's mark and a illegitimate serial number, these are not copies. They are fakes, dangerous and intentional fakes. To assert otherwise or to make apologies is to become an accessory to the crime.<<

OK...I am lost with the above comment. Mr Lampone made these orders and not once claimed it to be the genuine orders. They are copies as he states. Can you please explain how you came to describe these as 'dangerous and intentional fakes' unless I throw it really hard at someone head.

As to 'accessory to the crime', the only crime that I can even come up with is a violation of copy-right law...then again how many of us have boot-leg copies of music and computer programs on our computers. If Mr Lampone was out to deceive the collectors, he surely wouldn't be discussing his reproduction techniques here with us....Buyer-beware.

If I want to shell out a few bucks to buy a set of these, you betcha that I will want to handle the orders, inspect the orders, and have a money back guarantee before parting with my hard earned money. If I purchased these items without a money back guarantee, thinking that they were real and purchased below normal prices, more than likely, it was my greed that did the thinking....again buyer-beware.

I have no problems with members expressing their suggestions to Mr Lampone to mark the orders with some indications. However to suggest fraudulent criminal intent is baseless.

v/r
Dat Nguyen

[matteti]

I just wanted to add my two cents.

Yesterday, I saw a medal for XX years of Soviet Army Type 1 for sale on E!

It was obviously a fake medal. The seller was selling it with the mention that he didn't know much about soviet medals and could not guarantee its authenticity but he believed it to be authentic.

I wrote him an email and asked him to compare with photos of authentic medals which he did and he then agreed than medal was a fake. He withdrew the item and ended the sale. This would never have happened with a mention that medal was a copy.

Fortunately, this was an honest seller that is responsible, but with Lampone's orders, there is a risk that some people not knowing enough try to sell them as authentic and other people not knowing enough will also buy them as authentic.

So, it is not only to protect against fraudulent people, but also just from ignorant ones that can do a beginner mistake. With a clear engraving of "copy" or whatever, there would be no confusion.

[latinmajorac]

It seems clear that noone is intentionally trying to dupe anyone here. if Mr. Lampone makes the copies and sells them as copies that is fine. but what is to guarantee that the buyer will do the same? i am a novice collector and hell, it looks real enough to me. what if someone tries to sell me Mr. Lampone's copies but tells me it is real?

a deeply engraved or stamped 'copy' is necessary not from Mr. Lampone's position as the original seller, but is needed for future buyer and sellers in order to protect those of us who are not experts and don't have a keen enough eye to discern fakes from scans online.

as for the serial number... why? why have one? a serial number is a unique number assigned to a person. unless you are awarding medals to people i don't see the point of a serial number. a serial number in my mind makes it that much easier for a future seller of the medal (again, not Mr. Lampone) to 'legitimately' claim it is real and further dupe an unsuspecting buyer


as for the buyer beware, such a phrase is only applicable when the seller is not intentionally duping the buyer. in such a case it may not be easy for the buyer to defend him or herself from such a quality made fake. for example, how many times have we on this forum said, 'the color is off because of the flash on my camera'. how easy is it to identify this as a fake from scans? even though the enamel is different and arguably a slightly different color, the fraudulent buyer could just say 'oh, it is because of the flash of my camera' or "the lighting in the room does that, it is really the right color'

i am just saying, Mr. Lampone needs to take responsibility for his high quality work and make sure that he protects us in the community who may be novice collectors and thing they found a deal.

just my thoughts