Budenovka Identification

sovvisor · 04-20-2003, 01:42 PM

What is this. I've been informed OGPU but i have my doubts.
Fast, fast reply please!!.
All suggestions welcome.
what do you guys say?

DougD · 04-20-2003, 03:58 PM

They are difficult to tell fake from real becsue they tended to be made differnetly by year and place.

The cloth star on this one looks very large; larger then most I have seen. The badge star looks toonew, maybe 1960's and added.

From the scan the color of the cloth star looks like its purple; i don't know that thats an NKVD or OGPU color. Maybe its just the scan.

Any internal markings?

DD

sovvisor · 04-20-2003, 04:44 PM

No none. What should the branch be? It´s not OGPU. It should be maroon with orange piping or something like that. Here no piping at all. I can´t identify it. Any suggestion?
Best

DougD · 04-20-2003, 05:32 PM

I would not expect piping on a bud of this era, just the cloth star to denote its service branch.

purple could be, and i stress could be, railroad security. they used this purple color in 1920; this is my best bet.

could be militia (police, NKVD) too; they did have this color for some caps circa late 1930's. however, i think the bud is too early for this.

DD

vikingraider1 · 04-20-2003, 09:41 PM

As Doug says, Budenovkas are very much a popular reproduction item now...

I think you can tell a genuine one from a fake one by the internal markings. This is one area that I personally would aviod like the plague as they are being reproduced and faked on a large scale at the moment. Unless you know what to look for I would not spend money on something that slightly suspicious.

I must say however, judging from the photographs this one does look more genuine than the ones I have seen at military fairs in London recently...

otlichnik · 04-22-2003, 02:53 AM

This is the M22 summer budenny hat. It was used until it was replaced by the peaked cap in the M24 regs.

I have one, infantry, and the material looks the same. This one looks to be in quite good condition, especially the cloth star. Mine is very faded and worn, but I do have an M22 tunic which is in great condition - likely unissued, just some moth nips on the wool insignia. The badge is obviously 1940s+. However, my M22 hat came with no badge and I finally found the proper hammer and plow badge separately so mabe it was added.

As for the purple. Nothing OGPU I have ever heard of - border guards were green, konvoy troops - royal bue and GPU/OGPU state security had black! In a list of army branch colours 1922 there is only "biryuzoviy" which I am pretty sure is not purple but I don't have my dictionary at work.

The only other option, if genuine cloth star, is something non-military and non-OGPU, railway perhaps as DougD says...

Shawn

sovvisor · 04-22-2003, 04:25 PM

And now to the final question; should I buy it or not? You´re the experts, please advice.
Best

DougD · 04-22-2003, 07:09 PM

Only you make that call : )

DD

otlichnik · 04-23-2003, 08:18 AM

Sovvisor,

Let me just say that I would consider two things before buying. 1) price. 2) I would want to personally feel it and give it the nose test - yes the nose test. I find you can get a good feel for original aging by close examination with eyes, fingers and nose. Does it look, feel and smell its age. Its that gut call.

Can you handle the piece before you buy? If nt can you get a 100% no questions asked return policy? Finally, is it cheap enough that if it should turn out bad it is not the end of the world??

Shawn

sovvisor · 04-23-2003, 01:31 PM

Thanks guys.
No I can´t take the nose test but I agree that it´s the best test. The budy are in the us and I´m in Sweden. It have to be kind of smelly:-)
The price ain´t the end of the world but I gives me a lot of extra work if it´s a fake.
I´ll think about it and let you know my decition.
And now a new question. How much is a plow and hammer budy from borderguard m/19 without stamps worth? It´s in great condition and the buttons also have RSFSR emblem plow and hammer. I have a 100% money back garanty on it for life with is pretty neat. I´ll post pics as soon it arrives. It would be nice to know it´s value.
Best

04-20-2003, 03:58 PM	#2
DougD Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: NJ Age: 50 Posts: 2,060	Budnovkas They are difficult to tell fake from real becsue they tended to be made differnetly by year and place. The cloth star on this one looks very large; larger then most I have seen. The badge star looks toonew, maybe 1960's and added. From the scan the color of the cloth star looks like its purple; i don't know that thats an NKVD or OGPU color. Maybe its just the scan. Any internal markings? DD

04-20-2003, 04:44 PM	#3
sovvisor Bearer of the Red Star Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Uppsala Swden Age: 49 Posts: 229	answer No none. What should the branch be? It´s not OGPU. It should be maroon with orange piping or something like that. Here no piping at all. I can´t identify it. Any suggestion? Best __________________ sovvisor

04-20-2003, 05:32 PM	#4
DougD Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: NJ Age: 50 Posts: 2,060	piping I would not expect piping on a bud of this era, just the cloth star to denote its service branch. purple could be, and i stress could be, railroad security. they used this purple color in 1920; this is my best bet. could be militia (police, NKVD) too; they did have this color for some caps circa late 1930's. however, i think the bud is too early for this. DD

04-20-2003, 09:41 PM	#5
vikingraider1 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: London, Home of West Ham United Age: 54 Posts: 328	As Doug says, Budenovkas are very much a popular reproduction item now... I think you can tell a genuine one from a fake one by the internal markings. This is one area that I personally would aviod like the plague as they are being reproduced and faked on a large scale at the moment. Unless you know what to look for I would not spend money on something that slightly suspicious. I must say however, judging from the photographs this one does look more genuine than the ones I have seen at military fairs in London recently... __________________ "We can truly say that the whole circuit of the earth is girdled with the graves of our dead... and, in the course of my pilgrimage, I have many times asked myself whether there can be more potent advocates of peace upon earth through the years to come, than this massed multitude of silent witnesses to the desolation of war." King George V, Flanders, 1922 Last edited by CtahhR; 09-17-2013 at 07:21 AM.

04-22-2003, 04:25 PM	#7
sovvisor Bearer of the Red Star Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Uppsala Swden Age: 49 Posts: 229	recomendation And now to the final question; should I buy it or not? You´re the experts, please advice. Best __________________ sovvisor

04-22-2003, 02:53 AM	#6
otlichnik Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Canada Age: 56 Posts: 547	This is the M22 summer budenny hat. It was used until it was replaced by the peaked cap in the M24 regs. I have one, infantry, and the material looks the same. This one looks to be in quite good condition, especially the cloth star. Mine is very faded and worn, but I do have an M22 tunic which is in great condition - likely unissued, just some moth nips on the wool insignia. The badge is obviously 1940s+. However, my M22 hat came with no badge and I finally found the proper hammer and plow badge separately so mabe it was added. As for the purple. Nothing OGPU I have ever heard of - border guards were green, konvoy troops - royal bue and GPU/OGPU state security had black! In a list of army branch colours 1922 there is only "biryuzoviy" which I am pretty sure is not purple but I don't have my dictionary at work. The only other option, if genuine cloth star, is something non-military and non-OGPU, railway perhaps as DougD says... Shawn

04-22-2003, 07:09 PM	#8
DougD Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: NJ Age: 50 Posts: 2,060	Can't..... Only you make that call : ) DD

04-23-2003, 08:18 AM	#9
otlichnik Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Canada Age: 56 Posts: 547	Sovvisor, Let me just say that I would consider two things before buying. 1) price. 2) I would want to personally feel it and give it the nose test - yes the nose test. I find you can get a good feel for original aging by close examination with eyes, fingers and nose. Does it look, feel and smell its age. Its that gut call. Can you handle the piece before you buy? If nt can you get a 100% no questions asked return policy? Finally, is it cheap enough that if it should turn out bad it is not the end of the world?? Shawn

04-23-2003, 01:31 PM	#10
sovvisor Bearer of the Red Star Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Uppsala Swden Age: 49 Posts: 229	question answers Thanks guys. No I can´t take the nose test but I agree that it´s the best test. The budy are in the us and I´m in Sweden. It have to be kind of smelly:-) The price ain´t the end of the world but I gives me a lot of extra work if it´s a fake. I´ll think about it and let you know my decition. And now a new question. How much is a plow and hammer budy from borderguard m/19 without stamps worth? It´s in great condition and the buttons also have RSFSR emblem plow and hammer. I have a 100% money back garanty on it for life with is pretty neat. I´ll post pics as soon it arrives. It would be nice to know it´s value. Best __________________ sovvisor

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