Lenin.

[Bill Garvy]

#277493 Awarded 1954, (T.6, V.1), with Order Book issued to Petr Vlas'ev, possibly a civilian award.

[d-riemer]

Originally Posted by Nota Bene

I personally believe that "gold head" as a variation never existed - on earlier "silver head" variation the layer of silver was very thin, and with time it would wear off/"sink" into the gold. I've seen at least two "gold heads", that had minute traces of silver on them visible under a microscope.
As for the weight, I have seen a genuine "silver head" (s/n 2154) weighing 26.5 grams.
Alexei

Here are two Lenin orders that are close in serial number. One is supposed to be a Gold Head, the other one a Silver Head. The weight comparison is distorted by the different screw lengths. The Silver Head is not truly silver in color but the color is different from the Gold Head. I should be able to settle the question raised by Alexei with a SEM (scanning electron microscopy) analysis that can measure the silver concentration at the surface. I will report the results when available.

Depositing silver on gold is not a common procedure. It is usually done the other way around to give silver the appearance and the surface properties of gold. But the problems of diffusion of these two metals into each other due to their close chemical relationship are the same. Over time, a thin gold plating gets penetrated by the silver underneath or a thin silver plating diffuses into the gold underneath. In modern plating, a layer of a suitable barrier metal, usually nickel, is deposited on the base metal before plating to give a thin gold or silver coating endurance.

[Nota Bene]

Wow! This has to be a very old post of mine.

Durov in his last book quotes a complaint about the quality of the earlier gold OLs, and one of the problems was low quality of silver plating. This letter dates September 2, 1934. So I believe this point has been proven.

Alexei

[Lapa]

Originally Posted by d-riemer

...I should be able to settle the question raised by Alexei with a SEM (scanning electron microscopy) analysis that can measure the silver concentration at the surface...

Dietrich,

Man, you have some reaaaaaaaaaaally cooooooooooooool toys :D :thumbsup

Marc

[d-riemer]

Originally Posted by Lapa

Dietrich,
Man, you have some reaaaaaaaaaaally cooooooooooooool toys :D :thumbsup
Marc

Marc,
my daugter and son-in-law operate a failure-analysis lab and the central tool is a SEM. I have often dreamed that a certificate of authenticity and genuineness could be developed based on non-destructive scientific measurements on orders and medals. It is probably possible but would take a lot of time to develop. So, I keep on dreaming and will use the opportunity of comparing a "Gold Head" with a "Silver Head" to determine the significance of the information obtained with a SEM in an application that is ideal for this instrument.

[Aharim]

This is really cool.

To clarify the issue about location and wear patterns, on Gold head, there was no silver on the walls of the ring, (that is the interior sides of the depression) while on Silver Head, there was. That means the protected interior walls of the "well" or depression formed by the ring, were gold on gold head - and on silver head they had silver. That silver layer on the walls of the ring could have been removed chemically but should not wear. (Nothing touches there.) The two badges shown by D- both appear to have silver in the crevase, and quite possibly the walls. But it would be really cool to analyze non-destructively. I was considering "dipit" or "tarnex" on a cotton swab to see if that would remove/affect the silver. Your alternative saves me a gold/silver head. Whew! Thanks.

Second issue, since the silver is purposely darkened, it should not be pure silver but a silver oxide or nitrate or some such, sort of like silver film that darked when exposed to light.

And for the record, there are now a sufficiently available number of badges in the 800 - 1300 range to confirm to me at least, that all badges below xxxx were not gold head. But there is that funny red gold in Durov and Avers!?

A.

[d-riemer]

Originally Posted by Aharim

......I was considering "dipit" or "tarnex" on a cotton swab to see if that would remove/affect the silver. Your alternative saves me a gold/silver head. Whew! Thanks........
A.

Aharim,
let me understand what you were trying to verify with your intrusive and therefore possibly expensive experiment. Do you not believe Durov's statement - accepted by others in this discussion (Alexei, Marc) - that all early Lenin Orders were silver plated?

[Lapa]

Originally Posted by d-riemer

Aharim,
let me understand what you were trying to verify with your intrusive and therefore possibly expensive experiment. Do you not believe Durov's statement - accepted by others in this discussion (Alexei, Marc) - that all early Lenin Orders were silver plated?

Dietrich,

That is what I understood myself.

Marc

[Mark]

I bought this order and I've read the "red bible" and it says it is a type 5 variation 1. So this variation was introduced in 1943 after the new regulations... This is the highest piece in my collection now and I'm really proud of it and I'm also courious about some things.
My first question is, when was my piece sn. 168972 manufactured, in ww2 or later?
My second question is, is this order worth researching? It was probably awarded in 1951 or something like that and it's probably a long service award. An officer with a 25 years carrer could have seen and do some interesting stuff?

So what do you guys think? Thanks for any help.

[Lapa]

Mark,

The Order of Lenin was also awarded to civilians, so it is very possible that you could not research it.

Marc