For Service To The Motherland In The Armed Forces Of The USSR. - Page 2

Tal Inbar · 05-03-2002, 02:50 AM

The problem is not judt the serial number. Little work with gild plating - and you have 2nd or 1st classe. Many buyers don't know how many awards were awarded, so there are cases that the seller don't have to change the numbers at all.

If I had a chance to buy authentic award - but one which was never awarded - I would go for it, if the alternative is not having the specific award at all.

Mahdi · 05-03-2002, 06:42 AM

I used to think that way... However, it is simply impossible to determine the authenticity of this award (unless it is a really bad fake). But faking this award, which includes getting an authentic 1st class and putting in a new serial number, is a really easy task for a professional person. I would either do a lot of research and try to contact the original awardees (will end up being really expensive, since you would not be the 1st at trying that), or I would buy an "authentic" one for $100 or so. I've seen many offered, numbers as low as 009.

Tal Inbar · 05-03-2002, 10:18 AM

Authentication of a 1st class order of Service to the Motherland in the Armed Forces Set (!)

At first, it seems odd that no one payd attention to it. But after close examination of photos in the books (McDaniel, Shishkov) It is so simple!

The words in the order are wtitten inside white enamel. i
n the 3rd and 2nd classes, the colour of the letter is silver.
In the FIRST class it is gold.

If I was offered a piece claimed to be 1st class, I'd test one letter - if the gold color stays.......:D and if not - :mad:

It is impossible to alter completely and perfectly the color of the leters if they are surounded by the enamel!!!!!

Tal

Mahdi · 05-03-2002, 10:54 AM

Tal,

This seems like a good idea, but on a second thought - aren't first class orders made the same way the fake first class orders are made? From what I heard, they gold-plate the silver parts in a 3rd class to make a 1st class, which is exactly what the forgers would be doing anyway...

Just a thought. It's a good idea though... :)

Dave · 05-12-2002, 06:08 PM

I was once offered a 'complete set' of all three Orders of "For Service to the Motherland", to include the cavalier document for the three. I actually saw a 2nd Class that this fellow was offering, and it was perfect in every way, except that it was 'unissued'.

Supposedly, he was able to get 'unissued' awards, have the numbers engraved properly, and even get ahold of the actual books.

I didn't think about it at the time, as I had just started researching orders (this was back in 1996) but all that he had to do was find the numbers of awards issued to any of the first 12 guys, and have those engraved into the order, and have them written into the document. Viola! A perfect set!

If I was offered a complete set of all three awards, I would be highly suspicious. Why? First of all, the orders are so commonly faked, and the fakes are GOOD. Secondly, what's the likelyhood that the group of the three orders would be split from the rest of the order/medal group of the awardee? I'm sure it's possible, but even the most greedy dealer would still probably try to get as 'much bang for the buck' selling a complete group to one of these guys.

While I'm not saying that my second point would prevent me from buying a group, it would just make me a little more sceptical. (Just see how many Glory cavalier groups are out there with only the three glories and missing all the other awards!)

In the nine years that I've been collecting Soviet orders and medals, I've only been offered one 1st Class "For Service..." order. It had the document with it, and was completely legit, from a very legit dealer. It was also by itself, with all of the general's other awards missing. I didn't take advantage of the opportunity, and it sold, albiet for a LOT of money!

Anyway- good luck on trying to find a complete original group of three. I would guess, that with the awardees that are still living, and the groups in museums, there are probably only six of those groups available, and they won't be cheap!

---Dave

***Art*** · 05-12-2002, 06:30 PM

Having jumped into this thread in the middle, I feel I can offer an educated opinion..this award, Order for Service to the Motherland 1st class, #09 was purchased by me as a special order for a very good customer. It was expensive to say the least and not something in my personal collection. The award was authenticated by McDaniel and it is an early issue/manufacture. I have excellent 300DPI images of this award, they are 90K apiece. If someone wants me to selectively crop part of the image for a real good closeup let me know.

Art

Quote:

Originally posted by Tal Inbar
Letters in gold:

Lapa · 06-09-2002, 09:07 AM

Hi all,

I apologize for jumping a touch backwards in this discussion, but I am affraid that Tal's authentication test is doomed to fail.

The round center piece with the writing on it is actually struck in one piece, meaning that the letters protrude from the bottom of a groove that is later filled with enamel. The enamel is then fired, and the piece is polished, leaving smooth, flat enamel, the letters and edges all being smoothed down to the same level.

Electrolytic plating (which is what mints worldwide use commonly) requires that the surfaces to be plated be electrically conductive. Since the piece is struck from one piece of metal, all that is needed is to connect ANY part of the piece to plate to the plating machine. Plating does not adhere to enamel, so it is definitely not a problem to "upgrade" a 3rd class to either a 2nd or 1st class.

Just to keep everybody sweating, all the equipment is readily available :( : for enamel, you just need a small electric oven that would probably set you back about $500, and plating macjhines can readily be procured from about $350 upwards (for those on the forum familiar with Japan (hi Dave!), all the above, plus any type of supplies is available at Tokyu Hands).

So, if you stop and think of it for a second, it is actually relatively easy to replace missing enamel with actual glass enamel, replating is likewise fairly straightforward. The only drawbacks are to find the exact matching colors for both the enamels and the plating, but trial and error should bring any serious would-be faker pretty close to the real thing.

Sorry if I sound disturbing, but I believe that there is a serious need for all serious collectors to have at least a minimum level of understanding of the manufacturing process, and its potential pitfalls.

Marc

Lapa · 01-08-2003, 06:18 AM

Hi Bob,

Nice pictures, no argument about that. I wish I had the same type of equipment you have, I sure would have a lot of fun.

I am a little surprized by some of the conclusions you drew from your pictures. Please correct me if I misunderstood you.

I feel that most of the details you have shown are not irrefutable proofs of a genuine piece. I am a practicing enameler, and I also know about and have used various plating processes. To me, all the details displayed do not present much problem in duplicating on a 3rd class order. Only one thing, IF it is actually as you describe it, would be impossible to duplicate with a simple process: your conclusion for photos 4.1.and 4.2. However, under high magnification (I have a high-power stereo microscope) I find it impossible to see what you describe because the enamel is opaque. Also, some light residue can sometime be found between the enamel and the metal which is due to the use of a substance called "fondant" intended to help the enamel better stick to the metal (You can usually see it better on Red Stars where it tends to appear as a slight yellowish deposit between the enamel and the metal).

My point here is that, because the blue enamel used is of the opaque kind, light cannot go through it and show what is below it; this blue enamel is of the same kind as the white one used on the center medallion for instance. You can easily notice that you cannot see through any part of that enamel.

To ME (I insist on that point), pictures 4.1 and 4.2 show some shadowing that is due either to the lighting, or more likely to the edge of the enamel not being absolutely flat, but creeping up very slightly on the metal edge (a physical phenomenon - known as a menisk - identical to the behaviour of water in a glass, for instance). In the present case, the menisk is concave.

Regarding the guilding, the only suggestion I can have regarding genuineness would be the absence of guilding inside any small scratches due to wear, in a similar way to fake Orders of Glory II class. Short of that, there are several processes that can be used to guild any sort of piece - from quite simple to rather complex and requiring specific equipment - all of which could duplicate what you have shown, albeit more or less successfully.

In conclusion, I do not believe that the pictures shown here are reliable indicators of genuineness based on technical production consideration.

I welcome further technical criticism.

Marc

otlichnik · 01-08-2003, 06:25 AM

Marc and Bob,

This is GREAT!!! Bob, thanks for posting these aewsome photos. I think the discussion on methods and detecting fakes is excellent and very very useful. PLEASE keep it up guys.

Shawn

Bobsammer · 01-08-2003, 11:19 AM

Hi Marc!
I have heard before, that: « Short of that, there are several processes that can be used to guild any sort of piece - from quite simple to rather complex and requiring specific equipment - all of which could duplicate what you have shown, albeit more or less successfully ».
But, I never saw that gold-plating was put with such accuracy, that it has not touched enamel. I.e. gold-plating left under enamel and it was not visible of traces amalgam on enamel even under increase 600Õ – 1200X. I know, that such technologies are not present.
Or the enamel will be spoiled or gold-plating will be with holes.
Could you, please, illustrate your arguments by pictures?
Yours faithfully,
Bob Sammer.

05-03-2002, 10:18 AM	#3
Tal Inbar Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Israel Age: 55 Posts: 2,302	Authentication of a 1st class order of Service to the Motherland in the Armed Forces Authentication of a 1st class order of Service to the Motherland in the Armed Forces Set (!) At first, it seems odd that no one payd attention to it. But after close examination of photos in the books (McDaniel, Shishkov) It is so simple! The words in the order are wtitten inside white enamel. i n the 3rd and 2nd classes, the colour of the letter is silver. In the FIRST class it is gold. If I was offered a piece claimed to be 1st class, I'd test one letter - if the gold color stays.......:D and if not - :mad: It is impossible to alter completely and perfectly the color of the leters if they are surounded by the enamel!!!!! Tal

06-09-2002, 09:07 AM	#7
Lapa Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: St Petersburg, Russia Age: 63 Posts: 2,397	Gold/Silver letters Hi all, I apologize for jumping a touch backwards in this discussion, but I am affraid that Tal's authentication test is doomed to fail. The round center piece with the writing on it is actually struck in one piece, meaning that the letters protrude from the bottom of a groove that is later filled with enamel. The enamel is then fired, and the piece is polished, leaving smooth, flat enamel, the letters and edges all being smoothed down to the same level. Electrolytic plating (which is what mints worldwide use commonly) requires that the surfaces to be plated be electrically conductive. Since the piece is struck from one piece of metal, all that is needed is to connect ANY part of the piece to plate to the plating machine. Plating does not adhere to enamel, so it is definitely not a problem to "upgrade" a 3rd class to either a 2nd or 1st class. Just to keep everybody sweating, all the equipment is readily available :( : for enamel, you just need a small electric oven that would probably set you back about $500, and plating macjhines can readily be procured from about $350 upwards (for those on the forum familiar with Japan (hi Dave!), all the above, plus any type of supplies is available at Tokyu Hands). So, if you stop and think of it for a second, it is actually relatively easy to replace missing enamel with actual glass enamel, replating is likewise fairly straightforward. The only drawbacks are to find the exact matching colors for both the enamels and the plating, but trial and error should bring any serious would-be faker pretty close to the real thing. Sorry if I sound disturbing, but I believe that there is a serious need for all serious collectors to have at least a minimum level of understanding of the manufacturing process, and its potential pitfalls. Marc

01-08-2003, 06:18 AM	#8
Lapa Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: St Petersburg, Russia Age: 63 Posts: 2,397	Somewhat Puzzled by what was shown Hi Bob, Nice pictures, no argument about that. I wish I had the same type of equipment you have, I sure would have a lot of fun. I am a little surprized by some of the conclusions you drew from your pictures. Please correct me if I misunderstood you. I feel that most of the details you have shown are not irrefutable proofs of a genuine piece. I am a practicing enameler, and I also know about and have used various plating processes. To me, all the details displayed do not present much problem in duplicating on a 3rd class order. Only one thing, IF it is actually as you describe it, would be impossible to duplicate with a simple process: your conclusion for photos 4.1.and 4.2. However, under high magnification (I have a high-power stereo microscope) I find it impossible to see what you describe because the enamel is opaque. Also, some light residue can sometime be found between the enamel and the metal which is due to the use of a substance called "fondant" intended to help the enamel better stick to the metal (You can usually see it better on Red Stars where it tends to appear as a slight yellowish deposit between the enamel and the metal). My point here is that, because the blue enamel used is of the opaque kind, light cannot go through it and show what is below it; this blue enamel is of the same kind as the white one used on the center medallion for instance. You can easily notice that you cannot see through any part of that enamel. To ME (I insist on that point), pictures 4.1 and 4.2 show some shadowing that is due either to the lighting, or more likely to the edge of the enamel not being absolutely flat, but creeping up very slightly on the metal edge (a physical phenomenon - known as a menisk - identical to the behaviour of water in a glass, for instance). In the present case, the menisk is concave. Regarding the guilding, the only suggestion I can have regarding genuineness would be the absence of guilding inside any small scratches due to wear, in a similar way to fake Orders of Glory II class. Short of that, there are several processes that can be used to guild any sort of piece - from quite simple to rather complex and requiring specific equipment - all of which could duplicate what you have shown, albeit more or less successfully. In conclusion, I do not believe that the pictures shown here are reliable indicators of genuineness based on technical production consideration. I welcome further technical criticism. Marc

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05-03-2002, 02:50 AM	#1
Tal Inbar Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Israel Age: 55 Posts: 2,302	The problem is not judt the serial number. Little work with gild plating - and you have 2nd or 1st classe. Many buyers don't know how many awards were awarded, so there are cases that the seller don't have to change the numbers at all. If I had a chance to buy authentic award - but one which was never awarded - I would go for it, if the alternative is not having the specific award at all.

05-03-2002, 06:42 AM	#2
Mahdi Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: USA Age: 42 Posts: 92	I used to think that way... However, it is simply impossible to determine the authenticity of this award (unless it is a really bad fake). But faking this award, which includes getting an authentic 1st class and putting in a new serial number, is a really easy task for a professional person. I would either do a lot of research and try to contact the original awardees (will end up being really expensive, since you would not be the 1st at trying that), or I would buy an "authentic" one for $100 or so. I've seen many offered, numbers as low as 009.

05-03-2002, 10:54 AM	#4
Mahdi Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: USA Age: 42 Posts: 92	Tal, This seems like a good idea, but on a second thought - aren't first class orders made the same way the fake first class orders are made? From what I heard, they gold-plate the silver parts in a 3rd class to make a 1st class, which is exactly what the forgers would be doing anyway... Just a thought. It's a good idea though... :)

05-12-2002, 06:08 PM	#5
Dave Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: California Age: 49 Posts: 700	I was once offered a 'complete set' of all three Orders of "For Service to the Motherland", to include the cavalier document for the three. I actually saw a 2nd Class that this fellow was offering, and it was perfect in every way, except that it was 'unissued'. Supposedly, he was able to get 'unissued' awards, have the numbers engraved properly, and even get ahold of the actual books. I didn't think about it at the time, as I had just started researching orders (this was back in 1996) but all that he had to do was find the numbers of awards issued to any of the first 12 guys, and have those engraved into the order, and have them written into the document. Viola! A perfect set! If I was offered a complete set of all three awards, I would be highly suspicious. Why? First of all, the orders are so commonly faked, and the fakes are GOOD. Secondly, what's the likelyhood that the group of the three orders would be split from the rest of the order/medal group of the awardee? I'm sure it's possible, but even the most greedy dealer would still probably try to get as 'much bang for the buck' selling a complete group to one of these guys. While I'm not saying that my second point would prevent me from buying a group, it would just make me a little more sceptical. (Just see how many Glory cavalier groups are out there with only the three glories and missing all the other awards!) In the nine years that I've been collecting Soviet orders and medals, I've only been offered one 1st Class "For Service..." order. It had the document with it, and was completely legit, from a very legit dealer. It was also by itself, with all of the general's other awards missing. I didn't take advantage of the opportunity, and it sold, albiet for a LOT of money! Anyway- good luck on trying to find a complete original group of three. I would guess, that with the awardees that are still living, and the groups in museums, there are probably only six of those groups available, and they won't be cheap! ---Dave

01-08-2003, 06:25 AM	#9
otlichnik Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Canada Age: 56 Posts: 547	Marc and Bob, This is GREAT!!! Bob, thanks for posting these aewsome photos. I think the discussion on methods and detecting fakes is excellent and very very useful. PLEASE keep it up guys. Shawn

01-08-2003, 11:19 AM	#10
Bobsammer New Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 9	Hi Marc! I have heard before, that: « Short of that, there are several processes that can be used to guild any sort of piece - from quite simple to rather complex and requiring specific equipment - all of which could duplicate what you have shown, albeit more or less successfully ». But, I never saw that gold-plating was put with such accuracy, that it has not touched enamel. I.e. gold-plating left under enamel and it was not visible of traces amalgam on enamel even under increase 600Õ – 1200X. I know, that such technologies are not present. Or the enamel will be spoiled or gold-plating will be with holes. Could you, please, illustrate your arguments by pictures? Yours faithfully, Bob Sammer.

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