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The Researchers' Corner Research; the mysterious process which slowly sweeps away the passage of time to reveal the unique history within every award and unit.

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Old 01-26-2003, 11:01 AM   #21
slava1stclass
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To all:

Dave's pictures support my theory (repeated below from a previous post) that an exception was made for those Red Army personnel of G.O./Marshall rank:

"I agree that the likely reason there is no reference to the U.S. decorations in his records is the fact that post-WW II relations with the USSR were defined by the Cold War mindset. That said, it would have been very difficult for the average Red Army soldier to have decorations from an "avowed" enemy reflected in his service record. When further placed in the context of the NKVD/KGB's espionage paranoia, this makes perfect sense. I personally think, however, that the Soviet regime likely viewed WW II U.S. awards in a very different light when it became a matter of the senior Red Army officers holding G.O./Marshal rank."

Dave's photo of MSU Rokossovskiy also raises a very interesting new development. Information currently available from U.S. War Department GOs and other sources indicates that the only Red Army officer to be awarded the LOM in the degree of Chief Commander was MSU Zhukov. I have a copy of the WD GO for Zhukov's award. Dave's photo now suggests otherwise. I'll review my Red Army LOM data for Rokossovskiy's LOM info. I can verify Chuikov's DSC as being authorized by a WD GO. More to follow...

P.S. Munroe, the photo evidence of the GCB for Zhukov and KCB for Rokossovskiy supports my earlier message to you ref them likely being awarded these by the Brits in Berlin in the summer of 1945. I've seen photos of the ceremony. General of the Army Sokolovskiy received the KBE at the same ceremony.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Last edited by slava1stclass; 02-18-2003 at 09:27 AM.
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Old 01-26-2003, 11:25 AM   #22
mcwirsk
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Dear All

I agree with slava1st class. (it would be nice to call you by your first name). It seems that the big shots did not care and wore their awards proudly. But it seems that a Col in the reserves did not take chances like that. Especially a guy who was just a university prof.

I have seen the pictures of senior US officers wearing their Soviet stuff. What about the lower ranks?

Whats also interesting is the way the Soviets wear the awards. They wear the neck decorations like breast decorations. Was this becuase the Soviets had no neck decorations? All other "foreign" nations seem to wear them correctly.

I was just think... I think we can agree that the higher bravery awards Silver stars, DSC, Navy crosses went to Soviets who were decorated for bravery but do you think the awards like LOMs and BSs went to units that came into contact with American forces

Can someone check if the 297 Rifles Slaviano-Kirovogradskaya Division came into contact with American forces?

Kind regards

Munroe

PS Dave, it looks like a KBE.
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Old 01-26-2003, 12:04 PM   #23
slava1stclass
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Munroe,

Evidence would seem to support your belief that the majority of LOM and BS awards to Red Army personnel were those made once our two forces came into contact with one another. In the U.S. Army the LOM is awarded for service/achievement. The BS may be awarded for service/achievement or heroism. Remember, too, that the LOM was authorized in July 1942 and one of the main reasons for its creation was to recognize foreign military personnel - this explains its four degrees. The BS was a relatively new award back then only having been first authorized in February 1944.

My sensing is that in the exuberance of the moment of first linking up with the Russians the medals (and vodka) were flowing freely in both directions. Since the LOM and BS can both be awarded for meritorious service, and done so relatively quickly and unbureaucratically at the Division level, this would appear to be the most logical explanation. The Americans could quickly reciprocate for any Russian awards to American personnel by awarding the LOM and BS at the level where you actually encountered them - the Division level in the field. Additionally, this scenario helps to explain why visibility over the total number of LOMs and BSs proves so difficult.

In terms of where these link ups occurred, I would suggest that the most likely scenarios involved U.S. units that pushed to the Elbe, those in western Czecholslovakia and Austria as well as those which entered Berlin early in the summer of 1945 (initially the 82nd Abn Division) to assume occupation duty. Hope this helps.

P.S. Although not an expert on British decorations, I have to agree with Dave. Moskalenko is wearing the military KBE and Rokossovskiy the military KCB.

As a follow up, MSU Rokossovskiy is not listed among the other Red Army personnel who were awarded the LOM by the U.S. Army in WW II. My data is based on WD, MMM and other U.S. Army GOs running through 1946 and contains over 300 names. I'll screen the WD GOs for 1947 and 1948 to see if he appears in these.

Dave's photo confirms two things: 1) that a second award of the LOM (degree of Chief Commander) was indeed persented to another high-ranking Red Army officer (in addition to MSU Zhukov) and 2) the extremely difficult nature of nailing down specifics on this very interesting aspect of Red Army WW II history.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Last edited by CtahhR; 10-19-2014 at 02:39 PM.
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Old 01-26-2003, 03:42 PM   #24
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Re: Rokossovskiy's Chief Commander LOM

Quote:
Originally posted by slava1stclass
To all:

Dave's photo confirms two things: 1) that a second award of the LOM (degree of Chief Commander) was indeed persented to another high-ranking Red Army officer (in addition to MSU Zhukov) and 2) the extremely difficult nature of nailing down specifics on this very interesting aspect of Red Army WW II history.
Looking through my photos, I also have a photo of MSU's Eremenko, Govorov, Vasilevskii, and Meretskov all wearing a Chief Commander of the LOM! Seems like it was almost the 'norm' award to be given to Front commanders, and the equivelant.

--Dave
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Old 01-26-2003, 04:06 PM   #25
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Dave,

Your photo confirmations add immensely to the overall picture. Are you absolutely certain, however, that each one of them is wearing the Chief Commander and not the Commander degree? I only ask since the Commander degree was a "neck" award and the Soviets would simply attach the Commander badge to their uniform tunic/blouse since they couldn't wear it around their neck. At first glance, it looks like Chief Commander. If you can make out a bronze wreath suspension loop on the top of the LOM badge then it is fact in the degree of Commander. The suspension loop is a dead give away for the Commander degree.
I raise this point because my data lists both MSU Konev (1st Ukrainian) and MSU Tolbukhin (3rd Ukrainian) as having received the LOM in the degree of Commander. This would then shoot down the Front Commander automatically = Chief Commander degree theory. I'll check my list for Eremenko, Meretskov, Govorov and Vasilevskiy to see if they're listed as having received the LOM prior to promotion to Marshal.

With your guys and the ones I've listed above, I believe we're only missing the status of Gen of the Army Bagramayan (1st Baltic Front) and MSU Malinovskiy (2nd Ukrainian Front).

Regards,

slava1stclass

Last edited by slava1stclass; 01-26-2003 at 10:41 PM.
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Old 01-26-2003, 04:56 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by slava1stclass
Are you absolutely certain, however, that each one of them is wearing the Chief Commander and not the Commander degree?
Aha- now I see I have shot my dependability at ID'ing awards with the miss-ID'ing of the KBE! ;)

I am absolutely positive that the ones I've seen are Chief Commanders on the MSU's I listed above. I do have a photo of Konev that is quite interesting... The neck cravat for his Commander of the LOM being tied almost in a 'bow', and then that being used as a ribbon to attach the award on his uniform. Rather interesting.

According to my records here on LOM awards to Soviets, only Govorov (though listed as a Col... Is it the same guy?) awarded the LOM by the 45th Infantry Divison, is mentioned. None of the others (Eremenko, Vasilevski, Meretskov) are listed. Strange.

We've seen pictures of them wearing the awards, so there is obviously a resource that isn't getting tapped for Soviet citations. (Or a lot of them were lost!) Perhaps the Department of State conferred (they couldn't award, but perhaps they were placed in custody of the paperwork???) LOMs to senior officers, via a channel other than the War Department or MMM?

Quite an interesting hunt....

Dave
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Old 01-26-2003, 11:11 PM   #27
slava1stclass
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Dave,

COL Govorov is also on my list. He's definitely not MSU Govorov. As for the lack of LOM authority documentation for Rokossovskiy, Meretskov, Eremenko, Govorov, Vasilevskiy and quite possibly Bagramayan and Malinovskiy, I would think that if I can't find them when I review the WD GOs for 1946, 1947 and possibly 1948, then they were likely awarded via the MMM. I'm not certain where the repository for MMM records resides.

The only connection State Department might have in this matter were to be if the MMM was disbanded at some point. The U.S. Defense Attache to Moscow, as the senior military representative to the U.S. Ambassador, would then have been charged with presenting the awards to the officers concerned with the awarding authority being either the WD or the Department of the Army. My information concerning the additional awards of the DSC to Red Army personnel (to include my man) came via MMM GOs whereas the first 20 DSCs to the Russians (including Chuikov's) were via WD GO.

If you review pictures of Generals/Marshals taken at the 24 June 1945 Victory Parade in Moscow, you'll see several with the LOM in the degree of Commander wearing the badge pinned to their VP uniforms as you described above for Konev.

Once again, great info ref the photographic confirmation. The search for written documentation continues.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Last edited by slava1stclass; 01-27-2003 at 08:29 AM.
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Old 01-30-2003, 01:44 PM   #28
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Dear All

can anyone help with the movements of the 297 Rifles Slaviano-Kirovogradskaya Division. I would like to see is they came in contact with the American forces.

Kind regards from a very hot South Africa

Munroe
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Old 01-31-2003, 07:51 AM   #29
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Munroe,

After a quick check of my references, the Division was subordinate to 2nd Ukrainian Front and took part in the Budapest operation. My guess is that the contact with the Americans took place in Czechoslovakia since 2nd Ukrainian Front forces were involved in the final push towards Prague. Hope this helps.

Regards,

slava1stclass
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Old 02-12-2003, 10:01 PM   #30
mcwirsk
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Dear Slava1stclass

This is great news and the information will be great to see. Look forward to your posting.

It would also be interesting if we could ask members of the fourum to advise what they have in their collections. Thsi might give an idea of what is actually out there in collectors hands.

Kind regards

Munroe
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