For Service To The Motherland In The Armed Forces Of The USSR. - Page 3

Lapa · 01-08-2003, 07:08 PM

Hi Bob,

Unfortunately, I do not have the required photographic equipment for illustrations.

Regarding plating, the oldest method known to man is the use of mercury amalgam. The result is a very rich and dark gold plating that is quite resistant to wear.
Nowdays, electrolytic plating works pretty well with a rather simple equipment, but is not suited for a precise and accurate type of job.
For a few thousand $$$, you can purchase an electric plating machine that works wonders with details, which I suspect is a little brother (or sister, let's not be chauvinistic here) to the ones used by Monetniy Dvor.

The one important thing to know regarding mixing plating and GLASS enamels is that plating DOES NOT ADHERE to the enamel. Therefore, if you enamel a piece, then plate it, the plating will be deposited only on those parts where bare metal appears. Hence, a piece can be plated after enameling and all you can see is that the plating reaches perfectly the enamel limit without being able to tell which one was put on first (opaque enamel, of course).

Unless you can physically look through the enamel to see if the plating extends under the enamel (which is possible only with clear enamels, but not with opaque ones), it is impossible to tell is a piece was first plated then enameled, or first enameled then plated.

I believe that an illustration of that would be the Order of Glory II class. From my understanding (I sort of remember reading about that somewhere, a long time ago), the center medallion was first plated, then enameled. In this case, a genuine Order of Glory II class must show gold plating under the enamel, even if the plating has worn off the center (Alexei, please correct me if I am wrong). An extension of which could be the Medal for Veteran of the Armed Forced gold plated version (I use the conditional here as I do not have any manufacturing details about that medal). However, to me it would sound logical that the medal was first plated then enameled, and as such a genuine specimen should show gold plating under the enamel of the red star at the top (Alexei, help again!!! ;) ).

Personally, I am always weary of medals and orders where different classes or varieties are distinguished only by more or less areas being plated, since with some fairly readily available equipment, a little know-how and a bit of practice, a mediumly gifted would-be faker can easily make a living.

Not to scare anyone, of course... but I believe that too few people know and understand some of the basic processes involved in the manufacture of orders and medals.

Marc

Bobsammer · 01-08-2003, 10:40 PM

Hi Marc.
I can’t agree with you in all negative items. They are not arguments. Besides, you appeal to Orders of Glory II class, Red Stars. They don’t have anything common with this order. Completely different structure of silver, enamels and amalgams. It would be correct to compare it with Order for Service to the Motherland 2nd Class.
Besides, micro-PIXE method exists - quantitatively (Fe, Cu, Zn, Br, Ag, Sn, Au, Pb and Bi) determined. By this method fake can be determined in few minutes.
But, this is not a problem. Even gifted faker can’t work on molecular- crystal level. Provide the same or better pictures of order-fake and everything will be proved. Except of qualitative parameters, certainly.
And so … Not scientifically.
Yours faithfully,
Bob Sammer

Eugene · 01-09-2003, 05:22 PM

Even it sound informative, the information is not correct.
I'm sorry to bring it but many facts mentioned here are far from reality.
What Marc is saying is not true. They never do golplating prior to enameling the award. It's not logical and phisically just not possible. Do you have any idea what happens to goldplating when you place the enamel? The tempreture is over 800 C. It's always other way around. You can see the partial golplating under the enamel, only if there are scratches in the enamel and during goldplating some of that can get under the enamel.

Lapa · 01-09-2003, 07:01 PM

Bob and Eugene,

I did not mean to say as a truth that the orders were plated before being enameled. I said that TO ME, it could make sense if in some cases they were.

When I refered to the Red Star or the Order of Glory II class, I took these specific orders for ILLUSTRATION PURPOSES of something I was explaining. If anybody practices enameling, s/he will be more than familiar with "fondant". In my experience, the Order of the Red Star is the one on which you can usually see the remnants of the fondant very easily, hence its mention. The Order of Glory II class was mentioned because, as I mentioned, I seem to remember reading that these were first plated before being enameled. Once again this is only some recollection I have, but, should it be true, this order is then a good illustration of the process.

Now, there seems to be quite a bit of misconception regarding enamels and enameling. Unless enameling is done poorly (and I would not bet a single kopeck on that when it comes to Monetniy Dvor), the enamel actually melts and sticks to the metal, which is the reason you cannot simply remove it with your finger. It forms a microscopic bond with the metal. It is then impossible for any plating to "creep under". If someone finds plating UNDER the enamel, the ONLY WAY it got there was by plating the piece first.

Now, if anybody can explain and illustrate another way of doing so, I'll gladly pack up my 25+ years of experience in enameling and flatly apologize for misleading this forum.

Marc

Eugene · 01-09-2003, 07:44 PM

Marc,
With 25+ experience, you should know better, what temperature it takes to place enamel.
Goldplating wouldn't survive.
All orders were enameled first, than goldplated.
Can you name or list any orders or medals, which were goldplated than enameled. I don't know any.
If you see goldplating under the enamel, it might be so called "cold" enamel, but people don't even have to have your experience to tell the difference.

Lapa · 01-10-2003, 03:02 PM

Eugene,

I slept on what you wrote, and I believe that you are making a mistake:

1. Most enamels melt (fuse would be a more proper term) between 700 and 900 degrees centigrade, depending on the color (some of you may be surprized to learn that different enamel colors melt at different temperatures).
2. Gold melts at 1064.4 degrees centigrade.
3. Silver melts at 961.9 degrees centigrade.

Plating:
1. The simplest way to plate something is to dip an object in a bath of molten gold, provided the object's fusion point is higher than that of gold. In my experience, it is not the most common technique used today.
2. The amalgam method: gold is dissolved into mercury (quick silver) to make a paste called amalgam. The amalgam is placed on the object to plate, which is then heated at about 250 degrees for many hours until the merury has evaporated. It is a dangerous technique as the fumes are extremely toxic. This technique results in deep shinny plating and was the plating technique used from the antiquity until the 18th century. Both this technique and the previous one are refered to as "hot plating"
3. Electro-plating, also known as "cold plating": appeared during the 19th century, after the discovery of electricity (of course...). In short, and without going into the nitty gritty of it, his technique binds the atoms of gold with the atoms of the object that is being plated. As such, not all substances can be plated, since it results from a chemical reaction at the atomic level. This is the technique most widely (if not almost exclusively) used today.

Given these details, it is easy to understand that no harm (other than heat patination that can easily be washed away by acid bathing) would happen to an object that has been plated before being enameled.

Following your logic, since silver has a much lower fusion point than gold, the heat needed to fuse the enamels would damage more readily the silver than its gold plating, and therefore make silver an unsuitable metal for enameling! Personally I think not.

You refered to hot and cold plating in your posts. I do agree that these techniques are different, and present different results. However, there is no way that a hot-plated metal item would see its plating melting away in an enameling oven.

Please feel free to share with us any technical details about these plating techniques you may have, as I am very curious to find out more on this topic, which, in my practical experience to date, has gone along the lline of what I have put forward so far.

Marc

Doug Scott · 03-26-2003, 03:37 AM

I had a full set of unissued Service to Motherland awards offered to me here in Republic of Georgia for $500.00. I passed. As I recall, the serial number on the 1st class was 0009, which based on the information I had at the time, I felt had already been issued. Same thing for the 2nd class. None of them had docs. However, those are the first of this type of award I have seen here in over a year.

WAR II · 03-26-2003, 04:03 PM

I have a beautiful 1st Class and a 2nd Class Order of Service to the Motherland in the Armed Forces of the USSR which came from a Soviet Jew who immigrated to Israel in the early 1990s. The 1st Class is #114 and the 2nd Class is #2614. I assume both of them are unissued orders.
I noticed that McDaniel indicates on page 172 the highest serial # he had seen for a 1st Class was #454, and the highest # he had seen for a 2nd Class was 2951. If these are the highest numbers he had seen by 1997 (date of his book) it seems feasible that there had been at least 454 1st and 2951 2nd Class orders struck. What do you think?

yolkin · 11-29-2002, 02:56 PM

Hello everyone!

This question is for the gurus out there. There are currently (11-29-2002) several Orders of Service to Motherland up for bids on eBay. They look very different, though both are IIIcl. I will attach the pics of both for comparison.

Question:

Can the patina on the #26395 be that oxidized and the patina on #122446 be virtually absent? What was the approximate span, in years, that these two may have been awarded?

Thanks,

Eric

yolkin · 11-29-2002, 03:02 PM

... and the second one #122446

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01-08-2003, 07:08 PM	#1
Lapa Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: St Petersburg, Russia Age: 63 Posts: 2,397	Hi Bob, Unfortunately, I do not have the required photographic equipment for illustrations. Regarding plating, the oldest method known to man is the use of mercury amalgam. The result is a very rich and dark gold plating that is quite resistant to wear. Nowdays, electrolytic plating works pretty well with a rather simple equipment, but is not suited for a precise and accurate type of job. For a few thousand $$$, you can purchase an electric plating machine that works wonders with details, which I suspect is a little brother (or sister, let's not be chauvinistic here) to the ones used by Monetniy Dvor. The one important thing to know regarding mixing plating and GLASS enamels is that plating DOES NOT ADHERE to the enamel. Therefore, if you enamel a piece, then plate it, the plating will be deposited only on those parts where bare metal appears. Hence, a piece can be plated after enameling and all you can see is that the plating reaches perfectly the enamel limit without being able to tell which one was put on first (opaque enamel, of course). Unless you can physically look through the enamel to see if the plating extends under the enamel (which is possible only with clear enamels, but not with opaque ones), it is impossible to tell is a piece was first plated then enameled, or first enameled then plated. I believe that an illustration of that would be the Order of Glory II class. From my understanding (I sort of remember reading about that somewhere, a long time ago), the center medallion was first plated, then enameled. In this case, a genuine Order of Glory II class must show gold plating under the enamel, even if the plating has worn off the center (Alexei, please correct me if I am wrong). An extension of which could be the Medal for Veteran of the Armed Forced gold plated version (I use the conditional here as I do not have any manufacturing details about that medal). However, to me it would sound logical that the medal was first plated then enameled, and as such a genuine specimen should show gold plating under the enamel of the red star at the top (Alexei, help again!!! ;) ). Personally, I am always weary of medals and orders where different classes or varieties are distinguished only by more or less areas being plated, since with some fairly readily available equipment, a little know-how and a bit of practice, a mediumly gifted would-be faker can easily make a living. Not to scare anyone, of course... but I believe that too few people know and understand some of the basic processes involved in the manufacture of orders and medals. Marc

01-08-2003, 10:40 PM	#2
Bobsammer New Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 9	Hi Marc. I can’t agree with you in all negative items. They are not arguments. Besides, you appeal to Orders of Glory II class, Red Stars. They don’t have anything common with this order. Completely different structure of silver, enamels and amalgams. It would be correct to compare it with Order for Service to the Motherland 2nd Class. Besides, micro-PIXE method exists - quantitatively (Fe, Cu, Zn, Br, Ag, Sn, Au, Pb and Bi) determined. By this method fake can be determined in few minutes. But, this is not a problem. Even gifted faker can’t work on molecular- crystal level. Provide the same or better pictures of order-fake and everything will be proved. Except of qualitative parameters, certainly. And so … Not scientifically. Yours faithfully, Bob Sammer

01-09-2003, 05:22 PM	#3
Eugene Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: NY,NY Posts: 157	Even it sound informative, the information is not correct. I'm sorry to bring it but many facts mentioned here are far from reality. What Marc is saying is not true. They never do golplating prior to enameling the award. It's not logical and phisically just not possible. Do you have any idea what happens to goldplating when you place the enamel? The tempreture is over 800 C. It's always other way around. You can see the partial golplating under the enamel, only if there are scratches in the enamel and during goldplating some of that can get under the enamel.

01-09-2003, 07:01 PM	#4
Lapa Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: St Petersburg, Russia Age: 63 Posts: 2,397	Bob and Eugene, I did not mean to say as a truth that the orders were plated before being enameled. I said that TO ME, it could make sense if in some cases they were. When I refered to the Red Star or the Order of Glory II class, I took these specific orders for ILLUSTRATION PURPOSES of something I was explaining. If anybody practices enameling, s/he will be more than familiar with "fondant". In my experience, the Order of the Red Star is the one on which you can usually see the remnants of the fondant very easily, hence its mention. The Order of Glory II class was mentioned because, as I mentioned, I seem to remember reading that these were first plated before being enameled. Once again this is only some recollection I have, but, should it be true, this order is then a good illustration of the process. Now, there seems to be quite a bit of misconception regarding enamels and enameling. Unless enameling is done poorly (and I would not bet a single kopeck on that when it comes to Monetniy Dvor), the enamel actually melts and sticks to the metal, which is the reason you cannot simply remove it with your finger. It forms a microscopic bond with the metal. It is then impossible for any plating to "creep under". If someone finds plating UNDER the enamel, the ONLY WAY it got there was by plating the piece first. Now, if anybody can explain and illustrate another way of doing so, I'll gladly pack up my 25+ years of experience in enameling and flatly apologize for misleading this forum. Marc

01-09-2003, 07:44 PM	#5
Eugene Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: NY,NY Posts: 157	Marc, With 25+ experience, you should know better, what temperature it takes to place enamel. Goldplating wouldn't survive. All orders were enameled first, than goldplated. Can you name or list any orders or medals, which were goldplated than enameled. I don't know any. If you see goldplating under the enamel, it might be so called "cold" enamel, but people don't even have to have your experience to tell the difference.

01-10-2003, 03:02 PM	#6
Lapa Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: St Petersburg, Russia Age: 63 Posts: 2,397	Eugene, I slept on what you wrote, and I believe that you are making a mistake: 1. Most enamels melt (fuse would be a more proper term) between 700 and 900 degrees centigrade, depending on the color (some of you may be surprized to learn that different enamel colors melt at different temperatures). 2. Gold melts at 1064.4 degrees centigrade. 3. Silver melts at 961.9 degrees centigrade. Plating: 1. The simplest way to plate something is to dip an object in a bath of molten gold, provided the object's fusion point is higher than that of gold. In my experience, it is not the most common technique used today. 2. The amalgam method: gold is dissolved into mercury (quick silver) to make a paste called amalgam. The amalgam is placed on the object to plate, which is then heated at about 250 degrees for many hours until the merury has evaporated. It is a dangerous technique as the fumes are extremely toxic. This technique results in deep shinny plating and was the plating technique used from the antiquity until the 18th century. Both this technique and the previous one are refered to as "hot plating" 3. Electro-plating, also known as "cold plating": appeared during the 19th century, after the discovery of electricity (of course...). In short, and without going into the nitty gritty of it, his technique binds the atoms of gold with the atoms of the object that is being plated. As such, not all substances can be plated, since it results from a chemical reaction at the atomic level. This is the technique most widely (if not almost exclusively) used today. Given these details, it is easy to understand that no harm (other than heat patination that can easily be washed away by acid bathing) would happen to an object that has been plated before being enameled. Following your logic, since silver has a much lower fusion point than gold, the heat needed to fuse the enamels would damage more readily the silver than its gold plating, and therefore make silver an unsuitable metal for enameling! Personally I think not. You refered to hot and cold plating in your posts. I do agree that these techniques are different, and present different results. However, there is no way that a hot-plated metal item would see its plating melting away in an enameling oven. Please feel free to share with us any technical details about these plating techniques you may have, as I am very curious to find out more on this topic, which, in my practical experience to date, has gone along the lline of what I have put forward so far. Marc

03-26-2003, 03:37 AM	#7
Doug Scott New Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 15	I had a full set of unissued Service to Motherland awards offered to me here in Republic of Georgia for $500.00. I passed. As I recall, the serial number on the 1st class was 0009, which based on the information I had at the time, I felt had already been issued. Same thing for the 2nd class. None of them had docs. However, those are the first of this type of award I have seen here in over a year.

03-26-2003, 04:03 PM	#8
WAR II New Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: San Diego Age: 86 Posts: 14	I have a beautiful 1st Class and a 2nd Class Order of Service to the Motherland in the Armed Forces of the USSR which came from a Soviet Jew who immigrated to Israel in the early 1990s. The 1st Class is #114 and the 2nd Class is #2614. I assume both of them are unissued orders. I noticed that McDaniel indicates on page 172 the highest serial # he had seen for a 1st Class was #454, and the highest # he had seen for a 2nd Class was 2951. If these are the highest numbers he had seen by 1997 (date of his book) it seems feasible that there had been at least 454 1st and 2951 2nd Class orders struck. What do you think?

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