Fake/Altered Order Booklets

[RedMaestro2]

Does the photo on this document look original?

[Lapa]

Alex,

IMO, the picture is original, but not to this order book.

Marc

[Tommy]

Out of curiosity,

When a picture was included in a order book, was the picture taken at the time of the awarding to be stuck in the book, or was the awardee asked to bring a recent picture , or did they get one from the local party HQ?

I've never really thought about it before.

Re the above picture though, i agree with Marc. it does appear that that wasn't its original home.

Cheers,

Tom

[Lapa]

Tom,

I believe that only Kremlin awardings were issued with an officially stamped picture of the recipient (they most likely had to provide it). In most other cases, the order book was issued without picture and was stamped "Valid without picture". Later, recipient sometimes glued their own picture which would, obviously, not be stamped.

In Alex's booklet, the picture show the remnant of a stamp whereas the booklet was never stamped. This picture was taken from some other officially issued document and glued into the order book. Now, if playing probabilities according to CtahhR, there is a small possibility that the recipient himself glued this picture into the booklet; however, I believe that it is much more likely that an "entrepreneur" glued this picture into the order booklet to "improve" it.

Marc

[Tommy]

Thanks Marc,

A nice concise answer!

[CtahhR]

If I were "playing with probabilities" I would certainly say it is less likely that a recipient added a photograph than a dealer.

Tampering with an official state document without getting the official stamp of approval over it? Wake up Australia!

[Lapa]

Nope, I believe that your are not interpreting things properly. Apart from Kremlin awardings, the booklets were usually issued without a picture of the recipient. However, nothing prevented them to glue their picture into their order/medal book if they wished to do so, and this in no way would be considered to be tampering with an official document (unlike changing the recipient's name, or adding other awards, for example) and no stamp would be required in this case.

So, wake up Pommyland!

[RedMaestro2]

Originally Posted by Lapa

Tom,

I believe that only Kremlin awardings were issued with an officially stamped picture of the recipient (they most likely had to provide it). In most other cases, the order book was issued without picture and was stamped "Valid without picture". Later, recipient sometimes glued their own picture which would, obviously, not be stamped.

In Alex's booklet, the picture show the remnant of a stamp whereas the booklet was never stamped. This picture was taken from some other officially issued document and glued into the order book. Now, if playing probabilities according to CtahhR, there is a small possibility that the recipient himself glued this picture into the booklet; however, I believe that it is much more likely that an "entrepreneur" glued this picture into the order booklet to "improve" it.

Marc

Thanks all for your thoughts, Marc especially for the Kremlin awards clarification :thumbsup I would tend to think it is an added photo as well. But I don't want to exclude totally the other possibility.

Here's another booklet for inspection. Opinions please? What does the last digit of the order number look like to you?

Cheers,
Alex

[Lapa]

Alex,

There is a high probability that this was a leftover booklet that was "privatized" and filled out by an enterprising soul.

Marc

[RedMaestro2]

Originally Posted by Lapa

Alex,

There is a high probability that this was a leftover booklet that was "privatized" and filled out by an enterprising soul.

Marc

Figures :mad: Thanks for the confirmation.