Where Have All the Orders and Medals Gone? - The Rest of the Story

slava1stclass · 10-12-2004, 02:08 AM

To all:

BLUF (Bottom Line Up Front): The window of opportunity has slammed shut.

I met with one of Europe's leading dealers over the past weekend. He confirmed everything we've heard/discussed in this forum and have observed on major dealers' web-sites over the last months concerning the dearth of high-quality Soviet medals and orders in the West/spike in prices. Among the things he cited:

- On his last trip to CONUS (continental United States) he purchased (not sold) $45,000.00 worth of Soviet medals and orders to take back to Europe. He has many eager, prospective buyers among the "new rich" in Russia and Ukraine who are standing in line to snap them up.

- The current going price in Moscow for a standard, suspension-version Order of the Red Banner is $100.00. Compared to what someone in the West is willing to pay, his profit margin is higher when he ships them back to the "Rodina."

- Paul McDaniel was in Kiev two weeks ago where the asking price for a standard Order of Alexander Nevsky was $700.00.

- High-quality uniforms such as the M1945 general officer/marshal victory parade model are simply not to be had as they were just a few years ago.

- It's tougher to get archival research done owing to access problems as well as the fact that the profit margin for those doing it/who used to do it does not make it worthwhile anymore.

- Whereas in the past, the majority of his offerings/sales involved Soviet orders, medals and militaria, it now centers on religious icons, church silver and art.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Lapa · 10-12-2004, 07:32 AM

Slava,

I tend to agree with you. Three months ago in St Petersburg, a "standard" ORB was going between collectors around $65~70, and at that price was usually snapped up before you could even say "Can I have a look at it please"; all other orders and medals were pretty expensive according to our Western standards (apart from the really common stuff such as jubilee medals). Interesting badges are widely faked, and when original can reach prices that would frighten away even the most seasoned collector (the base unit is $100, and it is also the increment!).
On the uniform front, I was shown ONE genuine general VP uniform that was undergoing what was pudically termed "restoration" (both cuffs and collar had been removed... you draw your own conclusions with respect to the "restoration" aspect of it).
I was able to pick up a few VP uniforms: one infantry colonel, one cavalry sergeant and one Milicia colonel. All my contacts told me the same thing: can't find anything interesting pre-1960 anymore, especially general officer uniforms (it took them 7 weeks to dig up a M54 walkout general's uniform (pre-56) and a general parade unform (mid-60's)). Another more insidious aspect of it is that they now manufacture good quality reproductions/fakes of most uniforms up to those of the 1960's. I was shown piles of M54 parade uniform fabric, and bullion embroidery done by the actual factories using good quality thread - undistinguishable from the original. I was even offered to have my own M54 general's uniform tailored to my measurents, with delivery within 10 to 15 days. My contacts did not tell it straight to my face, but they made me understand that they produce these for "the others" [read "us"] while they are combing the world to repatriate whatever originals they can find.
As you rightly said, the window, but also the door and the gate have slammed shut. Fortunately, we can always turn to collecting znachki

Marc

new world · 10-12-2004, 12:48 PM

It looks like Soviet Militaria collecting is dying out, at least here in the US.

It's been a while since I or other collectors I talk to purchased anything decent (common items aside).

Distribution channels are being eliminated (selection on eBay is close to nothing, smaller dealers are leaving the business, suppliers from Europe don't come here anymore...).

Even at the large surviving dealers selection is reduced to bare minimum and when anything worthwhile is offered - the price is such that makes difficult to justify paying such. For example, famous NJ dealer is offering Kutuzov 2nd class at almost the price that he was selling 1st class 2-3 years ago.

William

Lapa · 10-12-2004, 12:56 PM

William,

It's called inflation

Marc

sovvisor · 10-12-2004, 02:03 PM

I must say that I agree with you guys. The prices have gone up the roof and a lot of the fun with collecting Soviet stuff has vanished. I have been search for about a year for a silver head lenin (type 3) For a long time I have been thinking of buying one for 1600 USD´but I though it was expensive. Three months lather the price has gone up to 2300 for the same rated 6 of 10 by McDaniel. Now its 3600 for a 3 of 10 and one dealer just sold one nearly perfect for 6000USD!!!!!!!
It´s way out of my league now. I bought a type 4 at a swedish auction house a year ago for 500USD now it´s worth 2400USD. It´s ridiculous.
AS you say ebay has dried up and I don´t see that the medals and orders are worth this prices. A first class of a Khmelnitski is about the same price as a car!!.
My interest has slowly shifted towards china and it´s medals. It´s not the same but there are many nice medals to collect and the has an interesting story with nationalist times, civil war and communist regime. And the great thing...they cost practicly nothing so far. Very little interest in them. Maybe one day they comes up to soviet prices;.) who knows and that day I´ll be sitting on a gold mine!!!
Best

new world · 10-12-2004, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lapa

William,

It's called inflation

Marc

Marc,

I am not sure about France but inflation is about 4-5% in the US.

As far as Russia goes - even they don't have hyperinflation (it that what you meant?).

More accurate term would be something like "abundance of New Russians with too much of free easily earned cash"...

Quote:

Originally Posted by sovvisor

...My interest has slowly shifted towards china and it´s medals. It´s not the same but there are many nice medals to collect and the has an interesting story with nationalist times, civil war and communist regime. And the great thing...they cost practicly nothing so far. Very little interest in them. ...

Sovvisor,

I agree with you, my interest also shifted more towards other countries.

Take Royal Bulgaria for example - one can buy complete set of high classes of Bulgarian orders starting around $1000. I am talking about beautiful sets, consisting of a Star, Cross, sach ribbon, and a box.

Back to the Soviet world - what can be bought for $1000? Not much at all may be Nakhimov medal...

The fun is almost gone

William

Lapa · 10-12-2004, 03:49 PM

William,

It was meant as a joke

I tend to know a little bit about economics, I teach business, management and economics in MBA programs

Marc

dannybou · 10-13-2004, 09:59 AM

Here is my opinion from a rookie in collecting Soviet awards. I've been collecting them since August 2004. Although I'm finding the major awards very expensive, I'm having a blast with the not so expensive ones. I am realistic though, that for me, Orders of Suvorov, Bogdan Khmelnitsky and so on are out of my price range. I'm hoping one day to have a Hero star. I find it is addictive, historical and allows me to learn everyday how to recognize fakes and what not. I think having a Plan B in all aspects of life is important, and so I also have a Plan B for Soviet awards and that is Bulgarian, Romanian and Yugoslavian awards. But for now, I'm totally hooked on Soviet awards and will try to get all the "affordable" pieces before going after the other countries. Just my 2 cents. Regards to all

Danny

Dolf · 10-13-2004, 10:12 AM

Danny,

Good point! I agree with you concerning those affordable or those out of range Soviet Awards. Also I agree that this is indeed an addictive hobby...
After collecting Soviet Awards for about a year I'm reaching my limit of items I can afford, that's why I started collecting Mongolian Awards. With these too I know some older top Awards are out of range to me too, so I guess after having those pieces I can afford I'll go for the Polish or Bulgarian...
Unfortunatelly for me the Portuguese Orders and Medals are not only very difficult to find but those I've seen for sale on the Net are simply too expensive, what a pitty...

Best,

Dolf

Dave · 10-14-2004, 07:25 AM

Ahhhh... back to the glory days when I was living in Russia and would give my contact a list of what I wanted. He'd come back to the market the next week with a bag full of awards - everything I wanted and sometimes a "freebie" Red Banner or RBL. I was paying him $20 per Red Banner, $15 for RBL's and $10 for just about every other order (PW2's, Red Stars, Glories, etc.) and he was making a profit from me, undoubtedly!

I think there are a lot of factors, and I've pretty much noted them in various threads here on the forum. I agree with most things that the "noted dealer" said, except that I haven't had any problem (knock on wood) with doing research thus far. I've heard a lot of rumors out there about it either being very difficult or impossible to do nowadays, but juding from my last research bill of $500+ last month, it's still VERY possible to do.

Just my two cents...

--Dave

10-12-2004, 02:08 AM	#1
slava1stclass Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 838	Where Have All the Orders and Medals Gone? - The Rest of the Story To all: BLUF (Bottom Line Up Front): The window of opportunity has slammed shut. I met with one of Europe's leading dealers over the past weekend. He confirmed everything we've heard/discussed in this forum and have observed on major dealers' web-sites over the last months concerning the dearth of high-quality Soviet medals and orders in the West/spike in prices. Among the things he cited: - On his last trip to CONUS (continental United States) he purchased (not sold) $45,000.00 worth of Soviet medals and orders to take back to Europe. He has many eager, prospective buyers among the "new rich" in Russia and Ukraine who are standing in line to snap them up. - The current going price in Moscow for a standard, suspension-version Order of the Red Banner is $100.00. Compared to what someone in the West is willing to pay, his profit margin is higher when he ships them back to the "Rodina." - Paul McDaniel was in Kiev two weeks ago where the asking price for a standard Order of Alexander Nevsky was $700.00. - High-quality uniforms such as the M1945 general officer/marshal victory parade model are simply not to be had as they were just a few years ago. - It's tougher to get archival research done owing to access problems as well as the fact that the profit margin for those doing it/who used to do it does not make it worthwhile anymore. - Whereas in the past, the majority of his offerings/sales involved Soviet orders, medals and militaria, it now centers on religious icons, church silver and art. Regards, slava1stclass

10-12-2004, 02:03 PM	#5
sovvisor Bearer of the Red Star Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Uppsala Swden Age: 49 Posts: 229	I agree I must say that I agree with you guys. The prices have gone up the roof and a lot of the fun with collecting Soviet stuff has vanished. I have been search for about a year for a silver head lenin (type 3) For a long time I have been thinking of buying one for 1600 USD´but I though it was expensive. Three months lather the price has gone up to 2300 for the same rated 6 of 10 by McDaniel. Now its 3600 for a 3 of 10 and one dealer just sold one nearly perfect for 6000USD!!!!!!! It´s way out of my league now. I bought a type 4 at a swedish auction house a year ago for 500USD now it´s worth 2400USD. It´s ridiculous. AS you say ebay has dried up and I don´t see that the medals and orders are worth this prices. A first class of a Khmelnitski is about the same price as a car!!. My interest has slowly shifted towards china and it´s medals. It´s not the same but there are many nice medals to collect and the has an interesting story with nationalist times, civil war and communist regime. And the great thing...they cost practicly nothing so far. Very little interest in them. Maybe one day they comes up to soviet prices;.) who knows and that day I´ll be sitting on a gold mine!!! Best __________________ sovvisor

10-13-2004, 09:59 AM	#8
dannybou Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Québec, Canada Posts: 284	Here is my opinion from a rookie in collecting Soviet awards. I've been collecting them since August 2004. Although I'm finding the major awards very expensive, I'm having a blast with the not so expensive ones. I am realistic though, that for me, Orders of Suvorov, Bogdan Khmelnitsky and so on are out of my price range. I'm hoping one day to have a Hero star. I find it is addictive, historical and allows me to learn everyday how to recognize fakes and what not. I think having a Plan B in all aspects of life is important, and so I also have a Plan B for Soviet awards and that is Bulgarian, Romanian and Yugoslavian awards. But for now, I'm totally hooked on Soviet awards and will try to get all the "affordable" pieces before going after the other countries. Just my 2 cents. Regards to all Danny __________________ A collector from Québec!!

10-12-2004, 07:32 AM	#2
Lapa Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: St Petersburg, Russia Age: 63 Posts: 2,397	Slava, I tend to agree with you. Three months ago in St Petersburg, a "standard" ORB was going between collectors around $65~70, and at that price was usually snapped up before you could even say "Can I have a look at it please"; all other orders and medals were pretty expensive according to our Western standards (apart from the really common stuff such as jubilee medals). Interesting badges are widely faked, and when original can reach prices that would frighten away even the most seasoned collector (the base unit is $100, and it is also the increment!). On the uniform front, I was shown ONE genuine general VP uniform that was undergoing what was pudically termed "restoration" (both cuffs and collar had been removed... you draw your own conclusions with respect to the "restoration" aspect of it). I was able to pick up a few VP uniforms: one infantry colonel, one cavalry sergeant and one Milicia colonel. All my contacts told me the same thing: can't find anything interesting pre-1960 anymore, especially general officer uniforms (it took them 7 weeks to dig up a M54 walkout general's uniform (pre-56) and a general parade unform (mid-60's)). Another more insidious aspect of it is that they now manufacture good quality reproductions/fakes of most uniforms up to those of the 1960's. I was shown piles of M54 parade uniform fabric, and bullion embroidery done by the actual factories using good quality thread - undistinguishable from the original. I was even offered to have my own M54 general's uniform tailored to my measurents, with delivery within 10 to 15 days. My contacts did not tell it straight to my face, but they made me understand that they produce these for "the others" [read "us"] while they are combing the world to repatriate whatever originals they can find. As you rightly said, the window, but also the door and the gate have slammed shut. Fortunately, we can always turn to collecting znachki Marc

10-12-2004, 12:48 PM	#3
new world Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: NYC, USA Posts: 1,086	It looks like Soviet Militaria collecting is dying out, at least here in the US. It's been a while since I or other collectors I talk to purchased anything decent (common items aside). Distribution channels are being eliminated (selection on eBay is close to nothing, smaller dealers are leaving the business, suppliers from Europe don't come here anymore...). Even at the large surviving dealers selection is reduced to bare minimum and when anything worthwhile is offered - the price is such that makes difficult to justify paying such. For example, famous NJ dealer is offering Kutuzov 2nd class at almost the price that he was selling 1st class 2-3 years ago. William

10-12-2004, 12:56 PM	#4
Lapa Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: St Petersburg, Russia Age: 63 Posts: 2,397	William, It's called inflation Marc

10-12-2004, 03:49 PM	#7
Lapa Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: St Petersburg, Russia Age: 63 Posts: 2,397	William, It was meant as a joke I tend to know a little bit about economics, I teach business, management and economics in MBA programs Marc

10-13-2004, 10:12 AM	#9
Dolf Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lisbon, Portugal Age: 68 Posts: 572	Danny, Good point! I agree with you concerning those affordable or those out of range Soviet Awards. Also I agree that this is indeed an addictive hobby... After collecting Soviet Awards for about a year I'm reaching my limit of items I can afford, that's why I started collecting Mongolian Awards. With these too I know some older top Awards are out of range to me too, so I guess after having those pieces I can afford I'll go for the Polish or Bulgarian... Unfortunatelly for me the Portuguese Orders and Medals are not only very difficult to find but those I've seen for sale on the Net are simply too expensive, what a pitty... Best, Dolf

10-14-2004, 07:25 AM	#10
Dave Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: California Age: 49 Posts: 700	Ahhhh... back to the glory days when I was living in Russia and would give my contact a list of what I wanted. He'd come back to the market the next week with a bag full of awards - everything I wanted and sometimes a "freebie" Red Banner or RBL. I was paying him $20 per Red Banner, $15 for RBL's and $10 for just about every other order (PW2's, Red Stars, Glories, etc.) and he was making a profit from me, undoubtedly! I think there are a lot of factors, and I've pretty much noted them in various threads here on the forum. I agree with most things that the "noted dealer" said, except that I haven't had any problem (knock on wood) with doing research thus far. I've heard a lot of rumors out there about it either being very difficult or impossible to do nowadays, but juding from my last research bill of $500+ last month, it's still VERY possible to do. Just my two cents... --Dave

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)