Fakes?

Eryk · 02-03-2007, 12:34 AM

Hello. Relatively new to collecting, and new to the forums.

My question is regarding the serial number ranges in the McDaniel and Schmitt Comprehensive Guide. I've two medals, a Medal for Combat Service and a Medal for Bravery that are each either Type 1 version 3 or Type 2 version 1 – each are on a 5 sided suspension and the Guide says that many T1s were put on them in 1943. They’re on a bar with four other medals. They are in a group, with a good amount of documentation.

Physically each fits perfectly with the Guide’s description of what each should be - rings, enamel, type of serial numbers, size of serial numbers - with one exception: the serial numbers are out of the ranges in the Guide. Each has a serial number below the “lowest observed” for a Type 2 and higher than the “highest observed” for a Type 1.

There is a certain sense in this. They are the oldest two awards in the order book, all the other awards are newer. They are more worn than the other medals as well, again indicating greater age. It is a WWII group, and that's when the changes occurred.

But they violate the “observed” numbers in the Guide. Is this proof that they’re fake? Or is it not uncommon to find things outside those ranges?

Eryk · 02-03-2007, 12:38 AM

How embarrasing.. I've yet to read the following thread.. all about the medal I'm asking about. Sorry if it has the answer I'm looking for - don't mean to waste anyone's time. I'll read it right after I get back from the movies! :D

Eryk · 02-03-2007, 03:55 AM

Back. Good film, Pan's Labyrinth. Recommended.

But back on topic. Having read the other thread my question stands - how hard and fast are the serial number ranges in the Guide? While out of the ranges mentioned they do make sense. (The Combat Service is 51420, the Bravery is 454390.)

(I need to get a better camera. Tried shooting some pictures, but my camera's not up to it.)

***desantnik*** · 02-03-2007, 04:17 AM

The s/n's are not hard and fast rules, they are observations. The book Echoes of War lists the lowest observed pentagonal suspension BM as 426.028 so your BM would fall into an acceptable range.

Your CSM however, if not a typo (51.420) would have definitely been originally issued with the red, rectangular suspension. You may either have a duplicate or the veteran changed it over to the pentagonal suspension according to his taste or uniformity with the BM.

Welcome to the forum.

Eryk · 02-03-2007, 06:33 PM

Thanks for the word and welcome.

No, it's not a typo. From what I've read the 'style' of display for some awards, eg, medal bars, along with changing regulations did lead to recipients modifying the ribbons. No other ribbon came with either, so there's no evidence that it was originally on a different one. But your thoughts on the s/n make complete sense. Glad to hear that being out of range <> automatic fake!

Lapa · 02-04-2007, 08:44 AM

Eryk,

First of all, welcome to the Forum.

You need to remember that the Comprehensive Guide was published about 10 years ago now. Since then, "a lot of water has flowed under the bridges" as the French saying goes.
For up to date information, you should have a look at the Mondvor site. It is in Russian, but even if you do not read the language, you can figure out things such as serial number ranges since every type, variation and sub-variation is illustrated.

Marc

02-03-2007, 12:34 AM	#1
Eryk Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Portland, USA Posts: 234	Fakes? Hello. Relatively new to collecting, and new to the forums. My question is regarding the serial number ranges in the McDaniel and Schmitt Comprehensive Guide. I've two medals, a Medal for Combat Service and a Medal for Bravery that are each either Type 1 version 3 or Type 2 version 1 – each are on a 5 sided suspension and the Guide says that many T1s were put on them in 1943. They’re on a bar with four other medals. They are in a group, with a good amount of documentation. Physically each fits perfectly with the Guide’s description of what each should be - rings, enamel, type of serial numbers, size of serial numbers - with one exception: the serial numbers are out of the ranges in the Guide. Each has a serial number below the “lowest observed” for a Type 2 and higher than the “highest observed” for a Type 1. There is a certain sense in this. They are the oldest two awards in the order book, all the other awards are newer. They are more worn than the other medals as well, again indicating greater age. It is a WWII group, and that's when the changes occurred. But they violate the “observed” numbers in the Guide. Is this proof that they’re fake? Or is it not uncommon to find things outside those ranges?

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02-03-2007, 12:38 AM	#2
Eryk Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Portland, USA Posts: 234	How embarrasing.. I've yet to read the following thread.. all about the medal I'm asking about. Sorry if it has the answer I'm looking for - don't mean to waste anyone's time. I'll read it right after I get back from the movies! :D

02-03-2007, 03:55 AM	#3
Eryk Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Portland, USA Posts: 234	Back. Good film, Pan's Labyrinth. Recommended. But back on topic. Having read the other thread my question stands - how hard and fast are the serial number ranges in the Guide? While out of the ranges mentioned they do make sense. (The Combat Service is 51420, the Bravery is 454390.) (I need to get a better camera. Tried shooting some pictures, but my camera's not up to it.)

02-03-2007, 04:17 AM	#4
*desantnik* Forum Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Eurasia Posts: 2,339	The s/n's are not hard and fast rules, they are observations. The book Echoes of War lists the lowest observed pentagonal suspension BM as 426.028 so your BM would fall into an acceptable range. Your CSM however, if not a typo (51.420) would have definitely been originally issued with the red, rectangular suspension. You may either have a duplicate or the veteran changed it over to the pentagonal suspension according to his taste or uniformity with the BM. Welcome to the forum.

02-03-2007, 06:33 PM	#5
Eryk Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Portland, USA Posts: 234	Thanks for the word and welcome. No, it's not a typo. From what I've read the 'style' of display for some awards, eg, medal bars, along with changing regulations did lead to recipients modifying the ribbons. No other ribbon came with either, so there's no evidence that it was originally on a different one. But your thoughts on the s/n make complete sense. Glad to hear that being out of range <> automatic fake!

02-04-2007, 08:44 AM	#6
Lapa Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: St Petersburg, Russia Age: 63 Posts: 2,397	Eryk, First of all, welcome to the Forum. You need to remember that the Comprehensive Guide was published about 10 years ago now. Since then, "a lot of water has flowed under the bridges" as the French saying goes. For up to date information, you should have a look at the Mondvor site. It is in Russian, but even if you do not read the language, you can figure out things such as serial number ranges since every type, variation and sub-variation is illustrated. Marc

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