General observation

[jefflgarrison]

Guys, I just finished the book "Ivan's War" and in chapter 10, Merridale makes the observation that,

Of the generation of young men that was born in 1921, the concripts who had been called up in time for the battles of Kiev and Kharkov, or for the calvary of Stalingrad itself, up to 90 percent were dead.

This along with the knowledge that a high majority of those taken captive in the first part of the war either died in concentration camps where turned to fight against their countrymen or were sent to the gulag after the war.

If so many pre-1943 soldiers died, is it possible to say that we are seeing the end of order below a certain level of numbers?

I see someone post a photo of an award with a low number and watch as it is confimed to be a fake.

Now I am not ignoring the fact that 1% of a million men is still 10,000 but how many died before the fall of communism and the family reluctantly handed back their awards? How many went later to the gulag and had their awards confiscated?

Is this the beginning of the end of awards below a certain level?

[desantnik]

I don't understand what you're trying to say/ask.

Yes, early awards are rare. Yes, many people died. What's your point/questons?

[jefflgarrison]

Point was that, for newbies, assume that what they see is fake for numbers from before 1942. The question in my comment is are we seeing a rising of the level of unavailable awards due to the older veterans having been going for some time and those now dying are from the end of the war and later.

Is it possible to find a legit ORB under #30,000? ORS below #25,000? OL below #8,000? Expecially any of these with documentation?

[latinmajorac]

Originally Posted by desantnik

I don't understand what you're trying to say/ask.

Yes, early awards are rare. Yes, many people died. What's your point/questons?

i think he is trying to say that because the person who (for example) was awarded a medal with the serial number 1 was likely to be executed, imprisoned, excommunicated etc and have their award taken away that the odds of us suddenly finding some shockingly new low number item is decreasing all the time.

his 1% argument makes some sense in terms of: if there was a million man army, and 90% were dead imprisoned etc, that leaves 10,000 soldiers alive who took care of their medals etc, what are the odds that those 10,000 were the ones who got awarded really low serial numbers. another way of looking at it is like this. if you have an award, with serial numbers spanning 1-1 million. and every person in the army received it at random (i.e. there is no order to who got the SN 1 and who got the SN 1 million) and wore it in battle or during troop movements etc, what is the odd that you will find the number one? ALOT less than 1 in 1 million.

i might agree with him actually, i am still on the fence as to whether lower serial numbers will be found...

[vvadim]

Originally Posted by jefflgarrison

This along with the knowledge that a high majority of those taken captive in the first part of the war either died in concentration camps where turned to fight against their countrymen or were sent to the gulag after the war.

Number of soviet prisoner of war that were sent to the GULAG after the war are greatly exaterated.

Total number of soviet POW was 3,396,400 and only 1,836,000 had survived captivity. By October 1 1944 354,592 former POW and men that escaped German army encircles passed through NKVD filtration camps. After investigation
249,416 were reenlisted into Red Army
18,382 (among them 16,163 officers) were sent to penal battalion
30,749 were sent to working battalions
5,924 were sent to serve as labor camp guards
11,556 were sent to People’s Commissariat of Internal Affairs for further investigation
5,347 died
51,600 were still in filtration camps.

By March 1 1946 4,199,488 soviet citizens were repatriated back to USSR. (2,660,013 civilians and 1,539,475 POW). 1,846,802 arrived from soviet occupation zone and 2,352,686 arrived from other countries occupation zones.

After filtration by March 1 1946
2,146,126 civilians and 281,170 POW were sent home
141,962 civilians and 659,190 POW were reenlisted into Red Army
263,647 civilians and 344,448 POW were transferred to People’s Commissariat of Defense disposal.
46,740 civilians and 226,127 POW were transferred to People’s Commissariat of Internal Affairs and People’s Commissariat of State Security for further investigation. (General Vlasov and other german collaborators were included in these numbers because they were former POW)
61,538 civilians and 27,930 POW by March 1 1946 were still used by soviet organizations abroad.

[desantnik]

Originally Posted by jefflgarrison

Point was that, for newbies, assume that what they see is fake for numbers from before 1942. The question in my comment is are we seeing a rising of the level of unavailable awards due to the older veterans having been going for some time and those now dying are from the end of the war and later.

Is it possible to find a legit ORB under #30,000? ORS below #25,000? OL below #8,000? Expecially any of these with documentation?

Even for an "oldie," early awards with such low serial numbers have always been hard to obtain for the reasons cited here and thus have a premium when encountered.

Due to demand, more awards will become more unobtainable. I predict a day when a serial-numbered BM will be a big deal, even with 3.4M manufactured.

It also depends on your perspective. Research brings even late and post-war awards to life whereas many early pre-43 pieces can't even be researched.

[desantnik]

I may add that availability is relative. I, and a few longer term collectors, may remember the day when a dealer would have 5-6 RSFSR Red Banners from which to choose. Back in the day a dealer had probably 50-60 Red Banners at a time with 5 or so being mirrorbacks. Few people, if anyone, one has either the money time to amass such a grouping for sale or collection. Lots of unique things were available then en masse.

I'm sure the same can be said about Third Reich items, US WWII airborne items, Napoleon, British campaign awards, etc.