Halhingol Battle Commemorative Badge.

[vatjan]

Dolf,
They are 2 different pieces, one is a recent Capral fake, the other was my first "mistake".:banghead

They are similar though in fabrication. The flagpole is definitely very wrong, but notice also that there are no reigns between the rider's hands that go to the horse's mouth. Overall detail is very poor, and would only fool a novice (which I was at the time :( )

Jan

[Nota Bene]

Danny,

This is the badge purchased from me, isn't it? Sorry, I can't tell from the picture if it's mine or not.

There were at least 2 variations of the T1 of this badge, made by the Moscow Arts Cooperative - with thick letters and better silver plating; and with thinnner letters and thinner silver-plating, that easily wears off. Between these two variations there are also differences in the horseman and enamel collors on the hills. I have seen a T1 Halhingol with gold-plated "rope" around the edge and letters on the banner. Somebody had told me about a T1 with pebbled pattern under the enamel on the banner, but I haven't seen it in person.

T2 flatback, made by the mint, - at least 4 variations exist, maybe more. The differences are in silver-plating, horsman details (especially the tail of the horse) and enamel colors on the hills. Both large and small size nuts were used with this badge.

Oh, and you do know my policy on returns - you don't like it, just send it back, no questions asked :) If you think it's not right, I will also pay for the return ticket.

Alexei

Originally Posted by dannybou

Paul thanks for the feedback. I've sent you a PM. But this badge was bought from a very, very reputable dealer.

[dannybou]

Dolf

I believe you probably missed my post #7. The "neon" as it is mentionned in the thread is exactly a scanning effect. It is as red and only red as what it should be.

Jan

I will scan it with the lid up at night to give it a black background. If it doesn't work, I'll use my digital camera. Give me a few days as I am still working the streets on the night shift for one more night after tonight.

Alexei

Yes it is your badge. I just didn't want to mention it in the open forum in case I broke a forum's rule. Alexei, I've been dealing with you for over a year now and I have never doubted you. I still don't. I am well aware of your return policy my friend, but it won't be necessary in this case. :thumbsup

To all: I feel bad now for posting this. The last thing I wanted was to cause some debate on whether this badge was authentic or not. I was just proud to display this first Halhingol badge. The first of many I hope as it is just a superb piece.

[desantnik]

Danny, you shouldn't feel bad about posting anything, at the end of the day we're all trying to share information (good or bad) and learn. I also did not enjoy throwing cold water on something as personal as a wife's present at Christmas nonetheless.

Speaking of learning, I will be the first to admit I don't know everything.
I spent a year ('99-'00) in Moscow as well as two years in Kiev ('03-'05) going to the collector clubs almost weekly and feel pretty comfortable seeing and handling original, as well as the latest fake items "at the source". Due to this I do not feel as comfortable as others doing on-line appraisals as I believe the "feel" or handling a piece conveys volumes that scanned photos do not.

I still don't like this badge.

Please, for my education, has anyone ever seen a similar type badge or can post pictures? To me the gold rope, neon colors (due to scanner or not), design and color of bronze horseman, silvered reverse, and finally, the nut are all new to me. One or two of these features I could chalk up to experience, but ALL of them on one piece really bothers me. I guess I've seen about 25-30 of these and probably 4-5 of the newest fakes (along with other common badges from the 30's-40's). I know badge references aren't always the most detailed or show reverses/nuts. Badges will continue to be of interest and this will only grow in value for several reasons, including orders and medals becoming cost prohibitive as also dicussed frequently on this forum. Thus, it is in everyone's best interest to run this piece and others to ground.

Alexei's reputation and return policy speak for themselves so I would like to offer up the badge (not Alexei or me) up for discussion. In the end, Danny's happy, Alexei stands by his merchandise, and I will have learned something. Everybody wins.

We have a lot of experience on this forum and I'd like to get down to whether or not anyone has seen either these features or this badge before?

[Nota Bene]

Danny,

I am in complete agreement with Desantnik, and I am glad we are discussing them.

I certainly do not pretend to know it all and I am learning something new everyday just like anybody else, involved in this field. Badges unlike orders and medals are sort of a gray area of Soviet militaria, because they are not that well documented in reference books. I've been a dealer for about 9 years, almost 10 actually, and at the beginning of my "career" I enjoyed help from two very kind collectors in Moscow, who were willing to take time to answer my stupid questions. What I said in my previous post is a result of years of observations.

About the large screwplate - over the years I have observed several badges (not all at once) with moderate to heavy patina and large screwplates with matching patination. I have assumed that they were original to the badges, but I can't guarantee that 100%.

Having said that, Danny, if you are in any way uncomfortable with this badge please-please send it back, and I will be glad to exchange it for one that will make you happy. Oh, and here's another thought - eventually all our collections will be sold. That's a sad reality! So even if you trust your seller completely (much appreciated!) and are completely sure in this badge yourself, it's better to have a badge, that causes no doubts. I will send you an E and we can discuss it.

Alexei

[Christophe]

Danny, Dolf, Alexei, Jan, Desantnik and others,

I have read this thread since the beginning, and I have to confess that my first thought about the badge was not a positive one. But, this was pure "intuition" or "feeling", not based on researched elements, as I have no knowlege at all (at all!!!!) about this badge, except what I can see posted here and there. So, I preferred giving the floor to the experts, and read the comments, hoping an happy end for Danny ;) .

The reason of this post is not this one. I want just to say that I have really appreciated here a real discussion between Gentlemen, in a very elegant manner from all parts. :)
Moreover this thread gave me interest for this badge; not to buy one, but to know more about it.

Again, for all these reasons, many thanks!! :thumbsup

And Seasons Greetings to all!!

Cheers.

Ch.

[Dat Nguyen]

""The reason of this post is not this one. I want just to say that I have really appreciated here a real discussion between Gentlemen, in a very elegant manner from all parts.""

Very well put Christophe. Great folks sharing their knowledge with others. Thanks to everyone.

Dat

[vatjan]

We learn something new every day and that is wonderful.

Thanks Alexei, for the info on the variations of this badge, I completely ignored this fact. This is my lesson for today :thumbsup

And Alexei, someone once said: "there are no stupid questions, only stupid answers" ;)

Jan

[Dolf]

Gentlemen,

What else can I say now that wasn't so well put in words before?

First of all, initially I had no idea this Badge came from Alexei, whom as I repeated again and again in different threads, I do trust more than 1.000%!

As I said before what immediately shocked me when I saw it posted is that yellow neon border color. I must confess initially I didn't even noticed the details of the reverse pic, with that screwnut, and only realized that when Paul (desantnik) mentionned it.

I only own the two posted before, but mine perfectly match the pics of these two types of the Badge on Dr. Battushig's book, and all pics on every serious reference I've seen so far, so I took it for granted that only these two Types existed. I had no idea there are more types/variations!
I've seen dozens of pics of this Badge here and there, but never saw one with those neon colors or such a screwnut.
So for these two reasons alone (the neon colors and the huge screwnut), I entirely subscribe Paul's words when he says "I still don't like this badge."

IMHO, considering that the Badge itself is authentic, because of from where it came, I still don't think the screwnut is original. As Jan mentioned before, it's quite common that Mongolian awards come with wrong screwnuts.
And as for the yellow neon border color, this is also the 1st time I see one like this.

So indeed I guess that as the others involved on this "real discussion between Gentlemen, in a very elegant manner from all parts" (as Christophe put it very well) I've learned something new with all this information and the different opinions posted, and also that I still have much more to learn.

Finally, allow me to subscribe again Paul's words when he says "Please, for my education, has anyone ever seen a similar type badge or can post pictures?". I guess it would indeed be very educational for us all and "in everyone's best interest".

Thank you all for sharing your knowledge.

Best,

Dolf

[dannybou]

Guys

Here are photos of the same badge as in post #1 but with my digital camera this time. As you can see, there is no "neon" colours as it was a scanning effect.

The badge is silver plated. The horseman is brass. probably due to wear and polishing, the silver plating on the horseman is gone. On the reverse, I can clearly see that the silver plating is still very much present, but if you look closely you can clearly see that it is starting to disappear from the edges as well as near the screw. Also, you can't see it through the images, but the screw itself has no silver plating left obvioously because of friction from the nut.

The badge weighs 15.5gr and measures 42.5mm from the flag pole to the bottom of the badge. The screwnut weighs in at 6.8gr and measures 25mm.

In examining the badge with my magnifying glass, the details of the horseman are very well done. The tail of the horse, the straps, the rider himself. The details are just omnipresent.

Searching through the reputable dealer website's that I have in my favourites, I located a Halhingol badge just like this one for sale and with appears to be the same screwnut. If you want , PM me and I'll point you in the right direction.