Fake/Altered Order Booklets - Page 2

EricFG · 11-03-2012, 08:22 PM

If Mondvor serves me right this is a type 9 Knizhka, from 1990/91. Орденская книжка Тип 9
Why/how a 1946 date got in that is beyond me.

Lapa · 11-04-2012, 04:46 AM

Eric,

It could be as a catch-up award. In this case, the basis for the award would be the date of the original prikaz, not the date the order was effectively given.

Marc

EricFG · 11-04-2012, 08:42 AM

Thanks. I was wondering if that would be the case.
And could you explain "prikaz" for me, please? The initial document recommending an award?

Lapa · 11-04-2012, 09:12 AM

Eric,

Prikaz, ukaz, for our purpose, it is all the same. It is the official document directing that a specific person be awarded a specific OMD. So, effectively, it is the last link in the chain.

Marc

EricFG · 11-05-2012, 08:47 AM

Before the temorary award certificate was issued (if issued), and then one more step before the actual knizhka, right?

Lapa · 11-05-2012, 10:15 AM

Eric,

Not too sure what you refer to here.

The usual "chain of events" was:
. Writing up a recommendation for award (what we usually refer to as "Citation"): Наградной Лист
. The recommendation went up through several levels for review/confirmation/alteration (upgrading/downgrading/rejecting)
. Once approved by the top level, it became the basis for awarding. The unit then issued an order for awarding (Приказ) based on the decision taken previously by the top level.

So, an awarding "ceremony" was organized and awards were given out along with a temporary certificate (although sometimes, the actual order booklet could be given directly).

Marc

Henry Sakaida · 07-13-2015, 03:24 PM

I just saw this on that well known auction site. HSU #5218 with accompanying order booklet. The order booklet is phony. It appears to be an old booklet, with page 3 doctored.

The Order of Lenin serial number to #5218 is incorrect, and the booklet
number to both awards is totally off! Thank goodness there are great reference books out there!!!

As for the HSU itself, it is really dinged and scratched. Since the booklet is a fake, I have NO confidence on the hero medal itself.

The seller fails to include a photo of the inside cover and page #1. Why? It would have the recipients name. Why doesn't the seller disclose the hero's name? He shows pages 3 and 4.

I just see to many red flags.

Al-muell · 07-18-2015, 08:17 AM

What about this one?

The number seems to indicate 1945 (or,less likely 1944), the boolket looks like normal 1950 booklet, wear looks genuine, had a photograph once (traces visible - glue and deformation of the page), not impossible for a ex-soldier to get a catch-up or a wound award.
What is strange is the lack of the award date and issue date.

Got it among other docs, so no problem if it turns out to be fake, just want to make sure.

***CtahhR*** · 07-18-2015, 08:25 AM

The use of a different pen to fill in the serial number is a really bad sign. I'm certainly not confident of it being a legitimate piece.

The "alternate" pen is usually seen in real or "added bonus awards for the collectors" for the later awards and not the only entry.

The lack of an award date isn't too unusual but add in all the other problems and I think it's not looking good at all.

Add to that no Чередник Николай Иванович with a Red Banner on "the site".....

11-03-2012, 08:22 PM	#11
EricFG Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Naples, Florida, USA Age: 59 Posts: 1,496	Re: Fake/Altered Order Booklets If Mondvor serves me right this is a type 9 Knizhka, from 1990/91. Орденская книжка Тип 9 Why/how a 1946 date got in that is beyond me. __________________ "patina imparts character" - PJS A wise man said: 'you should not pay a premium for what you want beyond your comfort level, and always ensure there is a mutually agreeable return policy.'

11-04-2012, 04:46 AM	#12
Lapa Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: St Petersburg, Russia Age: 63 Posts: 2,397	Re: Fake/Altered Order Booklets Eric, It could be as a catch-up award. In this case, the basis for the award would be the date of the original prikaz, not the date the order was effectively given. Marc

11-04-2012, 08:42 AM	#13
EricFG Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Naples, Florida, USA Age: 59 Posts: 1,496	Re: Fake/Altered Order Booklets Thanks. I was wondering if that would be the case. And could you explain "prikaz" for me, please? The initial document recommending an award? __________________ "patina imparts character" - PJS A wise man said: 'you should not pay a premium for what you want beyond your comfort level, and always ensure there is a mutually agreeable return policy.'

11-04-2012, 09:12 AM	#14
Lapa Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: St Petersburg, Russia Age: 63 Posts: 2,397	Re: Fake/Altered Order Booklets Eric, Prikaz, ukaz, for our purpose, it is all the same. It is the official document directing that a specific person be awarded a specific OMD. So, effectively, it is the last link in the chain. Marc

11-05-2012, 08:47 AM	#15
EricFG Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Naples, Florida, USA Age: 59 Posts: 1,496	Re: Fake/Altered Order Booklets Before the temorary award certificate was issued (if issued), and then one more step before the actual knizhka, right? __________________ "patina imparts character" - PJS A wise man said: 'you should not pay a premium for what you want beyond your comfort level, and always ensure there is a mutually agreeable return policy.'

11-05-2012, 10:15 AM	#16
Lapa Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: St Petersburg, Russia Age: 63 Posts: 2,397	Re: Fake/Altered Order Booklets Eric, Not too sure what you refer to here. The usual "chain of events" was: . Writing up a recommendation for award (what we usually refer to as "Citation"): Наградной Лист . The recommendation went up through several levels for review/confirmation/alteration (upgrading/downgrading/rejecting) . Once approved by the top level, it became the basis for awarding. The unit then issued an order for awarding (Приказ) based on the decision taken previously by the top level. So, an awarding "ceremony" was organized and awards were given out along with a temporary certificate (although sometimes, the actual order booklet could be given directly). Marc

07-13-2015, 03:24 PM	#17
Henry Sakaida Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 92	Fake Order Booklet with HSU #5218 I just saw this on that well known auction site. HSU #5218 with accompanying order booklet. The order booklet is phony. It appears to be an old booklet, with page 3 doctored. The Order of Lenin serial number to #5218 is incorrect, and the booklet number to both awards is totally off! Thank goodness there are great reference books out there!!! As for the HSU itself, it is really dinged and scratched. Since the booklet is a fake, I have NO confidence on the hero medal itself. The seller fails to include a photo of the inside cover and page #1. Why? It would have the recipients name. Why doesn't the seller disclose the hero's name? He shows pages 3 and 4. I just see to many red flags.

07-18-2015, 08:25 AM	#19
*CtahhR* Forum Administrator Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Deep In The Archives. Age: 17 Posts: 12,074	The use of a different pen to fill in the serial number is a really bad sign. I'm certainly not confident of it being a legitimate piece. The "alternate" pen is usually seen in real or "added bonus awards for the collectors" for the later awards and not the only entry. The lack of an award date isn't too unusual but add in all the other problems and I think it's not looking good at all. Add to that no Чередник Николай Иванович with a Red Banner on "the site"..... __________________ "Signed with his own rubber stamp"

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