VERY RARE type of NKVD General Uniform

[new world]

This was posted by a member on German Forum.

This is supposedly the rarest of the rare of uniforms - NKVD general with blue zig-zags on the shoulder boards.

Only few of these were ever fr sale.

Doug, please add more info as this is in your alley!

William

[DougD]

Well, first, all NKVD generals ( real ones) are rare; they don't often come in at all. Those with the "wave" stripes are even rarer still ( see this shot of the parade M1943 NKVD general). I have only had in 2, with a possible third on the way.

This tunic that Bill was smart enough to grab is very rare as it is a field NKVD general; rarer than a service M1943, not as rare as a parade one, but still, I have never seen another (there is one in the shalito large book, but it is later war).

The wave has yet to be solved; was it for all NKVD generals, but just used in 1943-1944, or is it for Generals of the NKGB. Its is still under debate.

DougD

[vvadim]

Well, first, all NKVD generals ( real ones) are rare; they don't often come in at all. Those with the "wave" stripes are even rarer still ( see this shot of the parade M1943 NKVD general). I have only had in 2, with a possible third on the way.

You confusing generals of NKVD troops and commissars of state security.
On the first photograph is everyday tunic (kitel) with shoulder boards of COMMISSAR of state security of 3rd rank (two stars represents 3rd rank) and on the second photograph is parade dress (mundir) of GENERAL of NKVD troops with wrong shoulder boards of COMMISSAR of state security. Because of wrong shoulder boards. it is impossible to say what troops (i.e. internal troops, prisoner convoy troops, troops for guarding railroads, troops for guarding manufacturing plants, troops of government communications etc.)
The only thing you can tell for sure it’s not frontier troops.

This tunic that Bill was smart enough to grab is very rare as it is a field NKVD
general; rarer than a service M1943, not as rare as a parade one, but still, I have never seen another (there is one in the shalito large book, but it is later war).

What makes it field ? This is regular everyday tunic.

The wave has yet to be solved; was it for all NKVD generals, but just used in 1943-1944, or is it for Generals of the NKGB. Its is still under debate.

Under debate by who?
As per NKVD order № 126 from 18 February 1943 wave green double breasted mundirs were for generals of all NKVD troops. Single breasted steel grey mundirs were for top commanding personal of state security (GUGB).
On April 14 1943 NKVD were divided once again into two commissariats (NKVD and NKGB) and on April 18 1943 kontrintelegense GUKR “Smersh” was transferred to NKO (People’s commissariat of defense) and intelligence of the navy UKR “Smersh” to the NKVMF (People’s commissariat of the navy), but they continue to were GUGB uniforms.
Confusion may come that a lot of people just received new uniforms and get transferred to different divisions and departments, but continue to wear them, because nobody will gave them new appropriate one until periods designated for uniform is expired.

That all was changed on July 6 1945. I was trying to attach a copy of original orders, but it was saing file is too large. File is 116k and I can attach only 50k, but it's unreadable then.

By the way belt is wrong tooooo. It’s for GUGB not for the NKVD troops.

[DougD]

Vadim,

I have seen both NKVD and NKGB generals / commissars with the wave stripes; knowing what the regulations said does not mean they were followed in reality, thats sort of why we have forums like this to see what actually came about. I am well aware of how the regulations changed in 1945, having had an exmple of an M1945 troops NKVD general too. Also, the belt is correct for both NKVD troops and NKGB until the 1945 change. As you know regulations were not 100% adhered too and the boards were mixed for both NKVD and NKGB, thus no clear line.

Border Guards would have been same, but with green piping, as I am sure you know.

The field tunic is field because of the subdued boards; yes it has the service buttons, not green, but calling it field is not incorrect. Thank you for pointing this out though.

As for debate, that is why we are here, to discuss these thing. Not everyone comes to the forum knowing everything ( though some seem to).

Thank you for the lesson on the NKVD, but I did know these things before you arrived. Thanks again for the refresher course.

DougD

[vvadim]

Doug do not get irritated so quickly.

Your and your friend making the book and I can not wait to see it. But I hope you do not want to make laughing matter like Laslo Bekesi or book with annoying “discrepancies” like David.
This is only reason why I’m here.
Bottom line is, on yours uniform WRONG shoulder boards.
Under no circumstances in million years such shoulder boards could be on this uniform.

With the same successes you can attache navy admiral or any other shoulder boards.

You can delete this massage or just ask and I never going to write to this forum again.
Otherwise:

Military rank of COMMISSAR OF STATE SECURITY existed, equal to the military rank of GENERAL-MAJOR or REAR-ADMIRAL.

In ALL documents military personal listed with military ranks they have. When subordinates address people with such rank (or any rank for that matter) they call them :” Comrade COMMISSAR OF STATE SECURITY”, or :”Comrade GENERAL-MAJOR”, or :”Comrade REAR-ADMIRAL”.

These people may hold different positions in different departments.

Some examples to illustrate.

Deconozov V.I. - 2 December 1938 was promoted to the rank of COMMISSAR OF STATE SECURITY of 3rd rank wile he was head of section of GUGB, then in 1939 he was transferred to commissariat of foreign affairs, and wile retaining his military rank of COMMISSAR OF STATE SECURITY of 3rd rank served as ambassador in Germany until JULY 1941. (after outbreak of the war he along with other embassy personal was “shipped” through Turkey back to Russia) and he served as deputy of People’s commissar of foreign affairs.
He was given appropriate diplomatic rank only in august of 1943. Following your logic he should be wearing diplomatic uniforms with GUGB insignia.

Belskiy L.I. COMMISSAR OF STATE SECURITY of 2rd rank.
Head of Soviet militia (GURKM) since 1935. Following you logic he should be wearing militia uniform with GUGB insignia.

Frinovsky M.I. – komkor in 1935, by 1938 Komandarm of the 1st rank.
(Please mind that no such rank as komkor of frontier troops or general-major of NKVD troops ever existed.) Rank was just general-xxxxx or komkor regardless of whether it’s army or NKVD.) Then he was transferred as a head of Commissariat of the NAVY. While retaining his rank he was wearing NAVY uniform. Following you logic he should be wearing NAVY uniform with GUGB insignia.


NKVD personal was transferred from one department to another and they may(or may not) retain GUGB military rank, BUT UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES they can mix uniform and insignia from different departments. You have to understand that NKVD troops it’s different department of NKVD, the same like militia or fire department or 39 other departments and it’s impossible to wear one insignia with other uniform. Not in million years.

Once again do not get irritated so quickly. Read your own message bellow:

As for debate, that is why we are here, to discuss these thing. Not everyone comes to the forum knowing everything ( though some seem to).

Thank you for the lesson on the NKVD, but I did know these things before you arrived. Thanks again for the refresher course.

You welcome

Vadim

P.S. Belt is wrong tooooo.

[DougD]

Thank you for your concern about the book. Since you are not part of the book, please do not worry anymore about it. When you publish yours, I am sure it will be done very well.If our book does not meet your approval please do not purchase it.

Also, please do not address me and ask me not to get irritated, etc. I have no problem discussing these subjects with you, but i do not repsond well to your very particular style. When I ask you to watch your behavior and posting style it is in my position as moderator, nothing more.

I will state my opinion again; the wave boards were for both NKGB/GUGB and NKVD troops. I know what different branches the NKVD had ( though I am not the expert, nor are you, that Shawn Caza is). I also know the regulation that (for parade uniforms) the wave boards were for GUGB/NKGB 'grey" single breasted tunic ( as I had one of these too). It is my contention that the boards, which are original to the tunic, are not 100% specific in practice to the GUGB/NKGB. I understand you disagree and have your reasons and I have mine. If you can't repsect mine, or others who disagree with you, then this is not the place for you. I will not stop you from posting as long as the posts meet this forums guidlines, but as moderator I ask you to reread the post (forum rules) about respecting others opinions, even if they disagree with yours. You may be 100% convinced you are correct, but that is not an excuse to not respect others.

Maybe I am incorrect; maybe the boards were for NKGB but also used by commissars who went on to be troop generals in the NKVD and kept the boards; however, I will stand by that the boards are original to the tunic. There is still alot to be learned and it will be many years before we figure it all out. If we knew everything now, this hobby would be no fun at all.

Also, capitalization of your words implies yelling. Please avoid as this is not what this forum is about.

You have stated that the belt is wrong twice. Fine. I disagree with you, the belt is fine for this uniform, actually it is for this uniform. Simply repeating that I am wrong does not bolster your argument. This point we also disagrre on. I think that you need to accept, that on these two points, we disagree. I will no longer debate these points with you, but will ask that you please respect the way the forum opperates.

Thank You.
DougD
Moderator

[LeeG]

Doug,
Keep your friends in mind the next time one of these tunics comes your way!
-Lee
:)

[vvadim]

Thank you for your concern about the book. Since you are not part of the book, please do not worry anymore about it. When you publish yours, I am sure it will be done very well.If our book does not meet your approval please do not purchase it.

You are extremely rude. I didn't say or done anything that deserve such attitude.
Of course you do not need my approval. In the D. Webster book you not only provided most of the Navy uniforms, but you attributed all of them.

On page 175 you claimed that is “Naval General of Technical Engineering”
First of all this is General-Major of Quartermaster corp (Intendantskaya sluzba)
And what is “technical engineering” anyway?
It was three engineering services in the Navy:
Engineering-ships service (inzenerno-karabelinaya sluzba)
Engineering-costal service (inzenerno-beregovaia sluzba)
Engineering-aviation service (inzenerno-aviazionnaya sluzba)
Naturally they all have different insignia, but to which one of the above you were referring as “technical engineering”?

On page 172 you claimed that is “Naval Infantry General”
First of all this General-Major of Costal service (Beregovaya sluzba)
And what is “Naval Infantry General” anyway?

On page 158 “Naval frontier troops General”. if put aside that it’s not “exactly” correct uniform, in Naval forces of Frontier troops of NKVD were only two rear-admirals, 17 captains of 1 rank and 12 cornels. No one was ever promoted to the rank of general-major. You also claiming that you have two more such uniforms, I’m really curios whom the belonged to?

On page 57 “Naval Admiral of Engineering, parade dress, 1940. First of all this uniform was instituted by order of NKVMF №45 24 January 1941 and by all means this is 1941 model, and

On page 104 you claimed that this is picture of Admiral, even though it’s clearly visible that it is not.
If fact this is general-lieutenant of costal service Mushnov I.S. head of artillery section (artileriyskoe upravlenie) of Baltic fleet.

On page 182 “Naval Captain 1 rank” . On the tunic of officer of costal service with the wrong buttons attached shoulder boards of Cornel of medical service.

You keep saying these shoulder boards are original to this tunic. What does it means? Are they permanently glued to the tunic or what? To best of my knowledge it’s takes any ware from 1 to 3 minutes to replace one shoulder boards with other shoulder boards.

I can continue, but it’s enough just to give you some ideas.

You also keep saying that you too familiar with regulations to hear it from me.
If you so familiar, please tell me what exactly was canceled on July 6 1945 and most importantly what was not?

I will state my opinion again; the wave boards were for both NKGB/GUGB and NKVD troops. I know what different branches the NKVD had ( though I am not the expert, nor are you, that Shawn Caza is).

Once again you are very rude. What makes you think that I’m not an expert? Do you know me? Instead of saying thank you, I will take your opinion in consideration, you keep insulting me.

Also, capitalization of your words implies yelling. Please avoid as this is not what this forum is about.

My apology, I didn’t know that.

Vadim

[Tal Inbar]

Vadim

WATCH YOUR STEP!

We would NOT tollerate this kind of language:

(pointed to a moderator) "You are extremely rude", "Once again you are very rude. What makes you think that I’m not an expert? Do you know me? Instead of saying thank you, I will take your opinion in consideration, you keep insulting me. "



Walk in this path once again and you will be BANNED.
Please read the rules of the forum for more clarification (or, as an EXPERT as you claim to be, maybe you have found this process of reading useless).

Tal Inbar
Moderator

[DougD]

vadim,

As Tal pointed out, this is not just my forum to help run and the rules were set up by all moderators.

Following what Tal said, please consider this your warning. Addressing me and making accusations against me ( or others) is not tolerated, nor warranted. If you have a problem with me as an individual please PM me and I will give you my e-mail address to use.

As for your latest posting, I am sorry you are offended but I am simply responding to your post and reminding you of the rules of the forum. In brief, I will respond to some of your points, but not in detail as I really do not wish to enter into a discourse with you. If I were not moderator I would not respond to this at all. As moderator, I feel it is my responsibility to respond to most threads.

A. yes, I have dealt with you before (and now) and from my end I did not have a good experience. That does not mean I will not allow you to post in the forum, but it does mean that I really would rather not deal with you myself.

B. I have never accused you of not being an expert (in English, ‘the’ implies “not the same level as”, where ‘an’ implies “overall”; I used ‘the’ to imply that Mr.Caza is at a higher level). I have reviewed my posts and never even hinted that you did not know what you were talking about. You, on the other hand, have treated me with nothing but disrespect, and have implied that I am not knowledgeable etc. You are an expert, but that does not mean others, including myself, are not allowed to disagree with you. This seems to be the biggest sticking point; the idea of agreeing to disagree.

C. I will not go check regulations to engage in a regulations battle with you. If you do not like or agree with my opinion, then simply ignore it. If you have the regulations memorized, congratulations.

D. I did not provide any info for the Webster/Nelson book; I did provide some photos ( those are the ones that are wrongly attributed to a Mr. Kirby-I am not sure who he is; also some original photos, all back in 1997-1998). All the writing was done by Mr. Webster and Mr. Nelson. If you have a problem with what they have written ( which you seem to, as you have posted your list) please contact them directly. I have the Schiffer publishing address if you need it.

E. As for the book that is being done now, please do not concern yourself with it. This is not a rude comment, but the book is not yours to really worry about. I mean no hostility, and if the book does not meet your approval, please do not purchase it. If you find this statement to be offensive, then I apologize.

F. Please start new threads if you wish to discuss new information; A proper title to this thread would have been “ Naval Uniforms in Webster / Nelson”.

On a side note, I notice how easily you criticize the book that is being worked on now for Schiffer, the Webster/Nelson book, and even the Hungarian book. I think that all these books help contribute to our hobby, help it grow, etc. Perhaps before being so quick to criticize others you should find a way yourself to help contribute in a positive way, rather than in a accusatory and overly critical way.

Please reread the forum rules once more, thank you.

DougD
Forum Moderator