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Old 03-29-2003, 04:03 PM   #1
Ed_Haynes
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This thread was split from BDHX medals

I agree there are still questions, but I think much order and structure has been brought to our valuable if random observations thanks to Victorov-Orlov's work. And a benefit of his work is that it is my understanding that he actually did research. An interesting idea. Vastly superior to just concocting theories (though that, too, is great fun).

Regarding the OMSA and similar bodies: On this forum, and others I am on, people either seem to

a) ignore, or

b) denigrate, or

c) diminish

the importance of OMSA, OMRS, BDOS, or other similar "harder" phaleristic groups, groups that publish journals (and have done so for decades) with much valuable information. Long before Paul's book supplanted it, for example, some very good Soviet information was included in the Medal Collector and while some of it has been superceded, some of it (especially much of Victorov-Orlov's work) is still "state of the art" and far beyond what I see elsewhere.

I am just amazed that a source of important information is ignored and these bodies are overlooked.

I know a lot of dealers on other lists I'm on attend various "gun" and "militaria" shows. How many attend the OMSA meetings?

And how many here are OMSA members?

Ed Haynes

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Old 03-29-2003, 04:33 PM   #2
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Have no clue

And how many here are OMSA members?


who cares............just enjoy the hobbie.......no wish to be involved with a medal elite.........my opinion

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Old 03-29-2003, 04:56 PM   #3
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I wouldn't denigrate Ed's point of vue. Phaleristics societies did good research works (I saw too Ed's various works about world's medals and it's impressive). I'm not in such societies because I don't need them for the instant. Why? I'm lucky, I gathered my own "society", i.e. a group of friends and knowledge seen on militaria fairs. Secondly, here on this forum I find for free and in great respect all the avantages of a society. Thirdly I don't have too much money for various societies (I already work in an aeronautical society), nor the time. I'm young collector, and gather money for this passion is a hard job!
My opinion: in europe we have great societies. But, as I pointed it out in the greeeat debate about souvorov 1st class, in France we are by far more conservative and consider (that's an error in my opinion) soviet like too exotic, or cheap. Germans are like this I think but a bit less, coz historically they're more orineted
towards Russia. My critic towards phaleristic societies: not give sufficient time to communist phaleristic (too recent, not the quality compared to older medals, too politiclaly oriented,etc...): where is the non-hungarian doc about the communsit period?
maybe I'm too young for this kind of society: staistically, a great number of collectors are seniors, coz when you bought house , built good career and raised children you have time and more money than a starting young for a hobby. Just statistics, not 100% law. So I' not sure to have my place in such organisms. But I'm confident about their value.

hope having been helpfull, sebastien
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Old 03-29-2003, 05:34 PM   #4
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To me, and I suspect to many, the greatest value is not the comradeship (more of that on the internet to be sure), not the annual meetings (though they are valuable, a chance to see and handle many specimens -- yet I've only been to two OMSA meetings and none of OMRS), but it is rather the information available from the often carefully researched articles in the journals.

No reference source is of more value than a carefully assembled set of back issues of the OMSA journal. (There's been some discussion of issuing back issues on CD-ROM, which I wish they'd do!)

But maybe some just don't want information? Can't imagine why. Maybe they think they know everything already?

If you need an example of the sorts of information available, see the summary of Victorov-Orlov's piece cited above. I suggest that it got our examination of these medals rather quickly onto a MUCH sounder fooiting than we'd have been able to achieve by simply showing each other what we have in isolation of any research.

But maybe I'm just missing something.

Ed Haynes

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Old 03-29-2003, 05:53 PM   #5
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Some thoughts........

I am NOT a member of OMSA, mainly because I don't live in the US.

I think that our hobby has more than one way of dealing with. At first, I think a new collector will be happy with the "metal" itself. Then, perhaps, variations, then documented medals, groups, research etc.

I think that in the more "advanced" collecting mode, one might join a phaleristic organization.

Ed, I do not think that people ignors OMSA and other organizations. I think the activities of this organization is not known to many collectors outside the US, and the referense materials of those organizations are also not common among us, in contrast to Paul McDaniel's book.

The whole idea of this remarkable forum is to SHARE and EXCHANGE information, as you did, by tell us about the BCXB and BDHX medals.

TO EACH - IT'S OWN.

Tal
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Old 03-29-2003, 10:21 PM   #6
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Ed,

I am a member of OMSA but I am very dissapointed in it. Not so much because of the information provided in its journal, (which can be a little microscopic at times, in my opinion), but because OMSA refuses to police its own and stand for honesty in selling medals. There are too many dealers under the OMSA banner who knowingly sell fakes and some of the worst are the Soviet dealers. I do not think that anyone will have a problem naming three or four individuals who should be run out of town on a rail for disgracing the collecting world with their dishonesty and if OMSA had "hair one" they would kick these people out of the society a violation of the very ethics OMSA is supposed to promote.

I believe that OMSA will continue to loose relivance as time goes on since much of the "new blood" needed to support the hobby is disillusioned and throw up their hands in disgust after wasting money on bogus purchases. Without leadership from OMSA and other groups in promoting honest sellers and knowledge, I fear that as the fakes continue to grow, we will be in an age similar to what is facing the "Knight's Cross." Fakes are too good and the knowledge is so poor that collectors run the other way when offered what would be a prized piece for their collection.

I am very happy that forums like Art's exist and that members can share infomration as I think that this bodes well for the future of collecting. I just see dark days ahead if OMSA continues to "lead from the rear" as the hobby advances.

I hope that I did not hit this too hard, but I cannot express my concern about this strongly enough.

Just my opinion,
Ed Maier
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Old 03-30-2003, 03:51 AM   #7
Chris
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Ed's comment

Actually there is one comment, which Ed makes and I agree with completely.

Dealers join some of these groups (OSMA) and under this flag of convenience sell blatant fakes.

I got burnt in a big way with a respected dealer who was nothing more than a crook.

He also writes articles in renowned journals and has produced a book, which has some of his fakes in it, but hey it’s in a book so it must be real.

He is not the only one

I don’t trust any of the bastards.

I prefere to exchange views with people who are not out to make a buck from you, such as this exchange

It was German by the way.

OK tantrum over

Chris
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Old 03-30-2003, 07:14 AM   #8
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It isn't just because he has such a good name, but I agree with a lot of whay Ed has to say about the reluctance of OMSA to aggressively police any kind of standards. You may not be aware, but the OMRS has been asserting just the same sort of abject cowardice.

Part of the problem -- and it is not restricted to these bodies -- is that dealers, by their nature, come to play an important role in our field of stufy ("hobby"). To take the OMSA as an example, they are able to attend all the meetings (they, after all, MAKE money from the gatherings, rather than SPEND money), they come to be known, and they come to be elected to society office. Also, everyone these days is frightened of liability issues, and this embraces both societies and internet communities.

A secondary function of these societies -- I see their major function as the journal -- is to establish and police a set of standards for the community. This requires a sort of courage which seems absent, I agree. Moreover, they just don't want to talk about the problem.

I am not so sure that cutting off the flow of information that these societies represent is the best way to deal with their lack of fortitude, however.

I'd suggest you expand your comments above and send them to the OMSA journal for publication! Seriously. They only danger is that you might find yourself elected to office.

Ed Haynes
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Old 03-30-2003, 12:02 PM   #9
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Ed,

ELECTED TO AN OFFICE! AUGH!!!!

I agree that liability is the major factor in limiting the policing. It comes back to the legal question of what is a fake and how does a court recognize "expert" opinion. From what I understand, the court cannot take one "experts" view over another so a liability case comes back down to ones person opinion over another.

As for the journal, and the spread of information, they must continue to inform the collecting community. I have seen very little information in the OMSA journal for the larger community. Most of the articles deal with minute subjects which neither advance the general knowledge of the collector or limit the ability of crooks to pass of fakes.

Chris's opinion that anyone who is out to make money from medals is somehow tainted is the off shoot of the improper policing of the collecting communities. I think that Chirs is wrong, but I can understand his feelings. Most new collectors enter the hobby by buying items at a show which is supposed to be self policing (OMSA, MAX, etc.) and end up getting burned. Its leaves a bad taste in their mouth. The problem with this blanket distrust for "making money" is that almost every collector is out to do the same thing with their collection, and many of the honest dealers started because they have a passion for the medals that they sell. I became a dealer because I was able to acquire more medals as a collector then I could buy myself. I am able to sell most of the items that come in to pay for the few I keep. This isn't a greed policy, but a survival policy (as my wife would throw Red Stars into my forehead like a Ninja if I spend family money on the collection!). Furthermore, this passion for collecting the medals, I believe carries over to the "honesty" factor of the dealer. These "dealers" spend the time to learn and study the hobby. They then try to pass the knowledge and love of collecting on to those they deal with. If you ask dealers who you trust why they got started selling medals, I think that most of them will repeat what I just wrote. This goes for any nationality or type of collecting. This is just an opinion, and certainly doesn't cover everyone, but I certainly want to spend my money with someone who shares the same passion level that I do.

Just my thoughts,
Ed Maier
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Old 03-30-2003, 12:40 PM   #10
Chris
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Wrong

I think that Chis is wrong, but I can understand his feelings.

Yes Ed I probably am. But it takes just one crook (and there are many in this business because it is big bucks).

The Internet and forums like these have severely dent many a credibility

I just hope that Russian medals do not become as crook as the German (actually I think they have, the fakes are getting better and better, so long as they don’t end up in a book with credibility that touts fakes as real like some German books which the writers know about because they sell the bloody things)

I am sure OMSA is a fine institution but it is also used by some to give a credibility not earned or deserved.

Like I said it was a tantrum

Chris
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