border guards cap question

paddywhack · 11-01-2002, 09:04 PM

i just picked up a nice border guards cap but the inside is well worn and i cant make out any of the stuff printed on the inside were you find the date and so on so i was just wondering when was the old stlye peaked cap replaced by the present one?
one other question i also got a tank commanders peaked cap but its just so well made i was wondering if during the communist era could you cet privatly tailered caps etc?
cheers for any help :)

otlichnik · 11-04-2002, 10:18 AM

Paddywhack,

A few questions on your hats. Could you describe the tank commander's hat as there is no such thing per se. The armour branch shares the same hat with all the technical branches which used black branch of service colour - artillery, engineers, construction, signals, etc. However, there are officer's hats with black velvet bands instead of regular black cloth. These were used for a while by officers of armoured units.

As to border guard hats - they existed in roughly the same colour scheme since around 1924. What changed were the hat badges and the size or crown and shape of peak. Any more details on yours??

Shawn

ibaya · 11-04-2002, 02:30 PM

Just a note re: arm-of-service colors

I believe that the arm-of-service colors in use up to the collapse of the SU were established in the 1960's, the time the modernized uniforms were introduced(?). Up until then, the color scheme for the hat bands, collar tabs and piping was more complex and variated. Tank officers had black with scarlet piping, other branches had different colored piping.

otlichnik · 11-05-2002, 04:36 AM

Ibaya,

You are right that branch of service colours changed often. The last change in fact occured after the M1969 uniform regulations. Sometime in the 1970s the medical branch switched from crimson to red. (1974??)

The history of colour changes is confusing and would take a long time to write up. However, it is pretty much all known and available now.

Interestingly, the oldest unchanged colour scheme belongs to the border guards' hat. The border guards' forest green hat with dark band and red piping was introduced in the early 1920s. In 1924 I think but my notes are at home. However, there were minor changes even to the border guard hat scheme. The piping was actualy crimson until sometime after 1955 (and before 1969) when it changed to red. The band was often described as (very) dark blue although by the 1960s it was definitely black.

Shawn

paddywhack · 11-05-2002, 08:38 AM

the tank cap is a dark green with a red piping on it and it has that lovely felt lining you mentioned and its has a very high quality cap badge on it not the normal stay bright cheap stuff!
now the border guard cap is turning out to be a bit weird, its forest green as border guards stuff is BUT it doesnt have any piping!!! its in the old style ww2 caps that are small but was a snall rounded peak sound like any thing you ve seen before?
i dont have any pitures as of yet but il do my best to get some!
cheers for you help and any info on either cap is welsome!!:)

otlichnik · 11-06-2002, 03:00 AM

p.w. [paddywhack is too long ;)],

It is always hard to guess without photos so hopefully you can send some soon.

As for the tank hat. By dark green do you mean that dark blue-green that the Russians call wave green or sea green or occasionally tsar green. That indicates an officer parade uniform post-1969.

The "BG" hat. How small is the peak? Is it the really rediculously tiny ones from the 20s or just the small seen in the war and post-war era? I am sure all BG hats from 1935 at least are piped. I am also sure that most before that (1924-1935) are also piped but there may be exceptions. What colour is the band?? What material is it - the felt of standard BG hats or the regular wool twill sed on other hats and tunics?

Shawn

paddywhack · 11-06-2002, 05:27 AM

the t c hat is a sea green i guess with the flet linning and its dated 1974!
the b.g cap has the small peaks from ww2 and it has a woolen band around the actul cap!
(just call me pat everyone else does:) )
thanks for everything so far :)

paddywhack · 11-06-2002, 05:36 AM

oops meant to say the tank cap has velvet band around the cap itsefl by the way are caps with this velvet linning hard to find?

otlichnik · 11-07-2002, 03:27 AM

Pat,

The hats with a black velvet band are definitely rarer than those with a black cloth band. I estimate that there are about 3 to 5 times more with the cloth band. Of course no M1969 uniform item is too rare. (I wonder if we could ever use the orders rarity scale for uniform items??)

To go back to a question you initially asked There were no real privae purchase items in the USSR. Everything under generals level was regularly supplied from the military stores. Generals stuff was made by special military tailors. I would't really call this privatwe purchase, at least in the post-war era. I the pre-war and early post-war I think there were some cases closer to private purchase. Maybe someone else knows more?

What is the colour of the bg cap band? Is the green material felt?

Shawn

paddywhack · 11-07-2002, 05:42 AM

the border cap is made from a wollen materail(????) the band around the cap is also made from a woolen type materail(???) but its very well put together,just wondering what type of prices would you exspet to pay for the tank commader type cap and the border guards old stle cap? cos i payed 50 for the first and 48 euros for the secand!

11-01-2002, 09:04 PM	#1
paddywhack Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: dublin ireland Age: 42 Posts: 66	border guards cap question i just picked up a nice border guards cap but the inside is well worn and i cant make out any of the stuff printed on the inside were you find the date and so on so i was just wondering when was the old stlye peaked cap replaced by the present one? one other question i also got a tank commanders peaked cap but its just so well made i was wondering if during the communist era could you cet privatly tailered caps etc? cheers for any help :) __________________ "Right ok so apart from the roads,education,sanition, medicine,the wine,the aquaducts, irragation, the public baths,a fresh water system and public order, what have the romans ever done for us?"........ reg from life of brian.

11-05-2002, 08:38 AM	#5
paddywhack Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: dublin ireland Age: 42 Posts: 66	the tank cap is a dark green with a red piping on it and it has that lovely felt lining you mentioned and its has a very high quality cap badge on it not the normal stay bright cheap stuff! now the border guard cap is turning out to be a bit weird, its forest green as border guards stuff is BUT it doesnt have any piping!!! its in the old style ww2 caps that are small but was a snall rounded peak sound like any thing you ve seen before? i dont have any pitures as of yet but il do my best to get some! cheers for you help and any info on either cap is welsome!!:) __________________ "Right ok so apart from the roads,education,sanition, medicine,the wine,the aquaducts, irragation, the public baths,a fresh water system and public order, what have the romans ever done for us?"........ reg from life of brian.

11-06-2002, 05:27 AM	#7
paddywhack Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: dublin ireland Age: 42 Posts: 66	the t c hat is a sea green i guess with the flet linning and its dated 1974! the b.g cap has the small peaks from ww2 and it has a woolen band around the actul cap! (just call me pat everyone else does:) ) thanks for everything so far :) __________________ "Right ok so apart from the roads,education,sanition, medicine,the wine,the aquaducts, irragation, the public baths,a fresh water system and public order, what have the romans ever done for us?"........ reg from life of brian.

11-06-2002, 05:36 AM	#8
paddywhack Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: dublin ireland Age: 42 Posts: 66	oops meant to say the tank cap has velvet band around the cap itsefl by the way are caps with this velvet linning hard to find? __________________ "Right ok so apart from the roads,education,sanition, medicine,the wine,the aquaducts, irragation, the public baths,a fresh water system and public order, what have the romans ever done for us?"........ reg from life of brian.

11-07-2002, 05:42 AM	#10
paddywhack Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: dublin ireland Age: 42 Posts: 66	the border cap is made from a wollen materail(????) the band around the cap is also made from a woolen type materail(???) but its very well put together,just wondering what type of prices would you exspet to pay for the tank commader type cap and the border guards old stle cap? cos i payed 50 for the first and 48 euros for the secand! __________________ "Right ok so apart from the roads,education,sanition, medicine,the wine,the aquaducts, irragation, the public baths,a fresh water system and public order, what have the romans ever done for us?"........ reg from life of brian.

11-04-2002, 10:18 AM	#2
otlichnik Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Canada Age: 56 Posts: 547	Paddywhack, A few questions on your hats. Could you describe the tank commander's hat as there is no such thing per se. The armour branch shares the same hat with all the technical branches which used black branch of service colour - artillery, engineers, construction, signals, etc. However, there are officer's hats with black velvet bands instead of regular black cloth. These were used for a while by officers of armoured units. As to border guard hats - they existed in roughly the same colour scheme since around 1924. What changed were the hat badges and the size or crown and shape of peak. Any more details on yours?? Shawn

11-04-2002, 02:30 PM	#3
ibaya Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Maryland, USA Age: 54 Posts: 200	Just a note re: arm-of-service colors I believe that the arm-of-service colors in use up to the collapse of the SU were established in the 1960's, the time the modernized uniforms were introduced(?). Up until then, the color scheme for the hat bands, collar tabs and piping was more complex and variated. Tank officers had black with scarlet piping, other branches had different colored piping.

11-05-2002, 04:36 AM	#4
otlichnik Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Canada Age: 56 Posts: 547	Ibaya, You are right that branch of service colours changed often. The last change in fact occured after the M1969 uniform regulations. Sometime in the 1970s the medical branch switched from crimson to red. (1974??) The history of colour changes is confusing and would take a long time to write up. However, it is pretty much all known and available now. Interestingly, the oldest unchanged colour scheme belongs to the border guards' hat. The border guards' forest green hat with dark band and red piping was introduced in the early 1920s. In 1924 I think but my notes are at home. However, there were minor changes even to the border guard hat scheme. The piping was actualy crimson until sometime after 1955 (and before 1969) when it changed to red. The band was often described as (very) dark blue although by the 1960s it was definitely black. Shawn

11-06-2002, 03:00 AM	#6
otlichnik Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Canada Age: 56 Posts: 547	p.w. [paddywhack is too long ;)], It is always hard to guess without photos so hopefully you can send some soon. As for the tank hat. By dark green do you mean that dark blue-green that the Russians call wave green or sea green or occasionally tsar green. That indicates an officer parade uniform post-1969. The "BG" hat. How small is the peak? Is it the really rediculously tiny ones from the 20s or just the small seen in the war and post-war era? I am sure all BG hats from 1935 at least are piped. I am also sure that most before that (1924-1935) are also piped but there may be exceptions. What colour is the band?? What material is it - the felt of standard BG hats or the regular wool twill sed on other hats and tunics? Shawn

11-07-2002, 03:27 AM	#9
otlichnik Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Canada Age: 56 Posts: 547	Pat, The hats with a black velvet band are definitely rarer than those with a black cloth band. I estimate that there are about 3 to 5 times more with the cloth band. Of course no M1969 uniform item is too rare. (I wonder if we could ever use the orders rarity scale for uniform items??) To go back to a question you initially asked There were no real privae purchase items in the USSR. Everything under generals level was regularly supplied from the military stores. Generals stuff was made by special military tailors. I would't really call this privatwe purchase, at least in the post-war era. I the pre-war and early post-war I think there were some cases closer to private purchase. Maybe someone else knows more? What is the colour of the bg cap band? Is the green material felt? Shawn

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