Order Of The Red Banner.

[Art]

Everyone,

Alex Nechiporuk just sent me these scans of the latest additions to his collection. Beautiful! Of course I had to ask if either were for sale, which he replied No, Sorry! These are compressed for the forum from larger images. Enjoy..I'll post early Red Star tomorrow.

note the original red-cloth rosette..

[Ed Maier]

Art,

That is cool!!! I've never seen one with an Order Book.

Ed

[Art]

Ed, very cool..here is an RSFSR document that was sold some time ago on EBay.

[Nota Bene]

Art, Ed,

I see a bit of a problem with Alex's booklet - it states that the recipient is entitled to all the privileges since May 1, 1930, meaning that the award was given to him on that day. Now, how come they have awarded an RSFSR Red Banner in 1930??!! The second booklet posted by Art lists an RSFSR Red Banner # 9044 (higher then Alex's), awarded in 1921. Can someone explain this to me, pleeeeease.

Alexei

[new world]

Alexei,

I see what you are saying. The highest observed number for RSFSR Banners is above 15,000 and by 1929-1930, the last years these were awarded, they should have gotten to the higher number than in 8,405.

And the red cloth rosette for Alexe's order is not the same as for the one in the 2nd order book.

Anyone knows if the style of these rosettes stayed the same through almost the decade that separate these two awards?

Attached is the Red Banner with correct rosette:

[Eugene]

I don't see any problems with dates. Actually, ukas for this order was issued in 1923 and 1930 could be the year when he received an award. I have a few award documents for Red Banner RSFSR and archive data for some of the orders:

N8375 ukaz from 23.03.21
N8598 ukaz from 23.02.28
N8638 ukaz from 1923
N8727 ukaz from 26.03.21
N9737 ukaz from 1923 but awarded 1926
N10211 ukaz from 20.11.25. AWARDED 28.08.29

There are some consistency, but they are not always in order.

[Nota Bene]

Gentlemen,

I do not believe it's a reissue document, because a reissue document would still indicate the original date of award.

I was under the impression that long delays between the original recommendation for the award and the actual Ukaz were common for WWII period. We all know that some veterans are still receiving their combat awards.

I thought I'd clarify - I do not believe there is something wrong with the medal or the document, I just think it's unusual that a medal with a fairly low serial number was awarded this late.

Alexei

[Kjetil Kvist]

Is it possible that this order was given to a civil war veteran in the early 20's. When he died i could have been given back to the state and so finally - as part of a serviceable stock - given to the new holder.

It is fairly common for orders in Norway and Denmark to be reissued many times. The danes just change the monogram on the cross each time a new monarch is proclaimed.

That could explain the discrepancy with the serial numbers and dates.

[HuliganRS]

This is an interesting Red Banner of RSFSR.
According to the number it should be a mirror reverse...
The enamel looks different from the other RSFSR RB's... and yet it was authenticated by Paul McDaniel.

Seller’s description:

Order of the Red Banner of Russian Federation, Type 2 (screw back with “flat” reverse, 2-word mint mark), #14078, manufactured in 1941-43. Comes with McDaniel authentication certificate. Excellent condition.
The order has been converted, most likely at the mint, from screw back to suspension. Remainder of the screw post is clearly visible. Enamel is in near perfect condition, without any visible chips. Very high 8 out of 10 condition rating by Paul McDaniel.

The closest explanation I found was on MonDvor site where it states: When political prisoners of Stalin’s purges of the mid 30's were imprisoned their awards were confiscated and destroyed. Then in 1941 when some officers were released they were re-issued awards with the same serial number. This was not a problem for orders like a Red Star and Badge of Honor but it was a different situation with obsolete Red Banner of RSFSR. So a decision was made to mint a small number of RSFSR Red Banners that were similar in dimensions to the original. The mint mark used was MonDvor with hand engraved S/N.

This information apparently is in the Avers 6;

This type of RSFSR Red Banner was exchanged for screw-back Red Banners in 1945.

To me it makes no sense to exchange a screw-back for another screw-back with attached loop. Why not just cut off the screw post on the original and attach a hoop!?!

Any opinions?

Thanks,

Rusty.

[new world]

Any opinions on the authenticity of this RSFSR Red Banner?

Tip of the pole is missing...

William