Last Chance Documents

Jeffrey Meffert · 03-22-2008, 10:13 PM

So I know some of you all have awards booklets for the day before dissolution but this is as late in the game as anything I have. I was reorganizing my files and found this afghanistan theater set which included the gramota and gramota cover for the afghan service medal as well as the award booklet for their irreproachable service and bravery medals. I thought some you afghan war fans would be amused.

***desantnik*** · 03-23-2008, 06:05 AM

Are you aware these were given to a woman ?

Lapa · 03-23-2008, 06:05 AM

Jeffrey,

Mikhail Gorbachev became President of the USSR on 15 March 1990, a position that did not exist before. How can an award booklet dated 1988 have the title "President of the USSR" and Gorbachev's signature? :confused:

Also, your long service document is stamped with a military Post Office stamp?!? which has nothing to do on this type of document. By the way, these documents were available in unissued form after the fall of the Evil Empire.

Marc

Jeffrey Meffert · 03-23-2008, 08:05 AM

That's pretty funny (in a tragic "looks I got sold another fake" sort of way)
As for the date on the gramota. Those are facsimile signatures and appear to be part of the form printing. Is it possible that it was officially "backdated"? I have all sorts of dates on various booklets I have (when earned, when awarded, when certified). I guess I need someone out there with one of these big certificates to show what theirs does.
How does the order book itself look? It would be nice if that was real, especially to a woman, and then they tied other forged documents to that.
I don't remember how much I paid for this, Hopefully not too much.

***desantnik*** · 03-23-2008, 08:10 AM

On closer inspection, I don't like the "ZA OTVAGU" stamp. It is usually written in blank ink and stamps like this aren't usually a good sign. Any other opinions?

Kirchgoens · 03-23-2008, 08:22 AM

I'm not convinced Jeff's stuff is bad. Most of you guys are way ahead of me on checking docs, but I will make a couple observations:

1. I have two blank gramotas for the Soldier Internationalist, and they are IDENTICAL to Jeff's in date and signatures. It appears this was a mass printing, and I bet it was a large annual awarding. I think his gramota is just fine as a doc (at least the pre-printed part).

2. It might be possible that the recipient of the BM got it a year or two late. This sort of thing, when tied to combat bravery awards, can routinely happen in the US Army. I suspect that in the Soviet Army of the 80's, the same sort of thing could happen. If so, she might have received her BM doc in '90 on what was then current doc stock.

3. I am right now looking at a military long service doc from the 60's/70's for the III class ('65) and the II class ('71). Both awardings were stamped in this booklet with the unit "postal" stamp (two different units also). I have another military LS booklet from '62 also stamped with the в/ч postal stamp. Maybe this was considered the unit stamp? That's what I thought was done for OPSEC or other reasons (not listing the name/type of the unit, just the postal code).

...Brian

Jeffrey Meffert · 03-23-2008, 08:26 AM

...even things I'd rather not know. (can't sell as a set with a clear conscience now)
Re: Gorbachev as president, He is certainly listed as the first and only elected president of the CCCP starting in March 1990 but, while searching, I was offered links to past figures such as "President Gromyko" and others. Is it possible there is another meaning of the word president, or russian equivalent, used here?
Here's hoping Kirchgoens is on to something. Thanks for spending a piece of your Easter digging through old docs on my behalf!

Kirchgoens · 03-23-2008, 08:37 AM

I've got an ORS (3.77mil) from Dec '86 that is stamped in red ink with the handwritten stuff in black ink. I trust the guy I got it from (although he could have been duped), but I guess only when the requested research shows up will I know for a fact if the doc is good. Still, that's a possible indication of another color. An ink pad is an ink pad, and they probably sat on desks in great numbers in red, black, and blue (like in any military unit in the pre-computer days - I know from my US Army days in the late 80's). Was there a reg on what color to use? Beats me, but I doubt it. I bet there were wide variances in stuff like that. Like my ORS, it would be interesting to find out when research will determine "good" vs. "bad" (although I guess the Afghan stuff doesn't always come back researchable).

A few months ago I bought a WWII-era group of a BM and ORS with doc. The BM had so much surface pitting, a replaced ring, and new enamel that I was very leary of its authenticity, but later research showed that the group was just fine and both awards did in fact belong to the same guy. In the end, you'll never know until you get researched docs on her.

My own gut feeling? I think it's (Jeff's) probably good. But... But, as Yoda might say to me, "Much have you to learn." (you'll need to do the cool voiceover)

Lapa · 03-23-2008, 10:14 AM

Guys,

I never mentioned anything about the Soldier Internationalist document. These have a printed date, and that's that. IMO, it is fine (although there are still stocks of unawarded, blank ones available...).

There was NO president position in the USSR until March 1990. Mikhail Gorbachev was the first, last, and only President of the USSR from 15 March 1990 until 26 December 1991. Previous leaders had the title of "Председатель" which can be translated by "Chairman", but in no way as "President". The reference you found is most likely from an English speaking site whose author made some sort of parallel to his own reference system.

All in all, I am not a big fan of these documents as a group.

Marc

Jeffrey Meffert · 03-23-2008, 11:12 AM

I have a nice end of the line bravery medal (and some funky documents)

03-23-2008, 08:05 AM	#4
Jeffrey Meffert Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: San Antonio, Texas, USA Age: 68 Posts: 640	long service document is stamped with a military Post Office stamp That's pretty funny (in a tragic "looks I got sold another fake" sort of way) As for the date on the gramota. Those are facsimile signatures and appear to be part of the form printing. Is it possible that it was officially "backdated"? I have all sorts of dates on various booklets I have (when earned, when awarded, when certified). I guess I need someone out there with one of these big certificates to show what theirs does. How does the order book itself look? It would be nice if that was real, especially to a woman, and then they tied other forged documents to that. I don't remember how much I paid for this, Hopefully not too much.

03-23-2008, 08:22 AM	#6
Kirchgoens Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: US Mid Atlantic Age: 57 Posts: 351	I'm not sure they are bad... I'm not convinced Jeff's stuff is bad. Most of you guys are way ahead of me on checking docs, but I will make a couple observations: 1. I have two blank gramotas for the Soldier Internationalist, and they are IDENTICAL to Jeff's in date and signatures. It appears this was a mass printing, and I bet it was a large annual awarding. I think his gramota is just fine as a doc (at least the pre-printed part). 2. It might be possible that the recipient of the BM got it a year or two late. This sort of thing, when tied to combat bravery awards, can routinely happen in the US Army. I suspect that in the Soviet Army of the 80's, the same sort of thing could happen. If so, she might have received her BM doc in '90 on what was then current doc stock. 3. I am right now looking at a military long service doc from the 60's/70's for the III class ('65) and the II class ('71). Both awardings were stamped in this booklet with the unit "postal" stamp (two different units also). I have another military LS booklet from '62 also stamped with the в/ч postal stamp. Maybe this was considered the unit stamp? That's what I thought was done for OPSEC or other reasons (not listing the name/type of the unit, just the postal code). ...Brian

03-23-2008, 08:26 AM	#7
Jeffrey Meffert Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: San Antonio, Texas, USA Age: 68 Posts: 640	Always learn things on the forum... ...even things I'd rather not know. (can't sell as a set with a clear conscience now) Re: Gorbachev as president, He is certainly listed as the first and only elected president of the CCCP starting in March 1990 but, while searching, I was offered links to past figures such as "President Gromyko" and others. Is it possible there is another meaning of the word president, or russian equivalent, used here? Here's hoping Kirchgoens is on to something. Thanks for spending a piece of your Easter digging through old docs on my behalf! Last edited by Jeffrey Meffert; 03-23-2008 at 08:28 AM. Reason: add comment

03-23-2008, 08:37 AM	#8
Kirchgoens Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: US Mid Atlantic Age: 57 Posts: 351	An Afghan ORS with red ink stamp... I've got an ORS (3.77mil) from Dec '86 that is stamped in red ink with the handwritten stuff in black ink. I trust the guy I got it from (although he could have been duped), but I guess only when the requested research shows up will I know for a fact if the doc is good. Still, that's a possible indication of another color. An ink pad is an ink pad, and they probably sat on desks in great numbers in red, black, and blue (like in any military unit in the pre-computer days - I know from my US Army days in the late 80's). Was there a reg on what color to use? Beats me, but I doubt it. I bet there were wide variances in stuff like that. Like my ORS, it would be interesting to find out when research will determine "good" vs. "bad" (although I guess the Afghan stuff doesn't always come back researchable). A few months ago I bought a WWII-era group of a BM and ORS with doc. The BM had so much surface pitting, a replaced ring, and new enamel that I was very leary of its authenticity, but later research showed that the group was just fine and both awards did in fact belong to the same guy. In the end, you'll never know until you get researched docs on her. My own gut feeling? I think it's (Jeff's) probably good. But... But, as Yoda might say to me, "Much have you to learn." (you'll need to do the cool voiceover) Last edited by Kirchgoens; 03-23-2008 at 08:42 AM. Reason: In para 2, changed "real" to "researched"...

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Documents et al	desantnik	Sold Soviet Awards Archive	1	09-22-2007 10:20 AM

03-23-2008, 06:05 AM	#2
*desantnik* Forum Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Eurasia Posts: 2,341	Are you aware these were given to a woman ?

03-23-2008, 06:05 AM	#3
Lapa Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: St Petersburg, Russia Age: 63 Posts: 2,397	Jeffrey, Mikhail Gorbachev became President of the USSR on 15 March 1990, a position that did not exist before. How can an award booklet dated 1988 have the title "President of the USSR" and Gorbachev's signature? :confused: Also, your long service document is stamped with a *military Post Office stamp*?!? which has nothing to do on this type of document. By the way, these documents were available in unissued form after the fall of the Evil Empire. Marc

03-23-2008, 08:10 AM	#5
*desantnik* Forum Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Eurasia Posts: 2,341	On closer inspection, I don't like the "ZA OTVAGU" stamp. It is usually written in blank ink and stamps like this aren't usually a good sign. Any other opinions?

03-23-2008, 10:14 AM	#9
Lapa Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: St Petersburg, Russia Age: 63 Posts: 2,397	Guys, I never mentioned anything about the Soldier Internationalist document. These have a printed date, and that's that. IMO, it is fine (although there are still stocks of unawarded, blank ones available...). There was NO president position in the USSR until March 1990. Mikhail Gorbachev was the first, last, and only President of the USSR from 15 March 1990 until 26 December 1991. Previous leaders had the title of "Председатель" which can be translated by "Chairman", but in no way as "President". The reference you found is most likely from an English speaking site whose author made some sort of parallel to his own reference system. All in all, I am not a big fan of these documents as a group. Marc

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)