If you want something done right...do it yourself.

[jefflgarrison]

what is the serial number is the same for every medal he makes. I can see the idea being similar to "fake" jewelry. You want a real "Order of Lenin" safely in the vault but a high quality copy for others to handle without them knowing it is fake. Therefore you may want the fake engraved with the same number. Just as long as you remember which one is the real one.

[latinmajorac]

Originally Posted by jefflgarrison

what is the serial number is the same for every medal he makes. I can see the idea being similar to "fake" jewelry. You want a real "Order of Lenin" safely in the vault but a high quality copy for others to handle without them knowing it is fake. Therefore you may want the fake engraved with the same number. Just as long as you remember which one is the real one.

so kind of like a 'wearers copy' for collectors?

it still causes the problem of it being able to be sold as an original later on down the road.

but in this case i guess i still dont' understand the point of having a serial number at all. it seems that even if you wanted a display medal you would show it obverse out and no one would see the serial number anyways

[andrew6767]

Originally Posted by medals73

Sorry. Presented as they are, with fraudulent manufacturer's mark and a illegitimate serial number, these are not copies. They are fakes, dangerous and intentional fakes. To assert otherwise or to make apologies is to become an accessory to the crime.

I agree. Its attitudes like this that make me want to give up collecting and not bother.

It is hard enough for the novice collector as it is to find a genuine item these days. Most will start on Ebay as I did and will not be experts at spotting very small differences.

Whilst these copies are nice , the majority will no doubt end up being used to dupe unsuspecting buyers who think they are buying an original. Just because the manufactuer is selling them as copies , do people seriously think others wont try selling them as original , especially when you can get a serial number put on as well.

Its like manufacturing and dropping a cache of weapons in a war zone and saying I take no responsability for their use. Its fine to say , but you know quite well what will happen with them.

If he had any credibility for what he is doing , he would NOT be making identical copies with mintmark and fake serial numbers. I am surprised to see people here seemingly thinking this is ok to do.

[Esteban_cool]

Originally Posted by Lapa

Esteban,

It is not that simple. You are holding a line of thought reminiscent of the NRA's position: "Guns don't kill people, people do".

I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that Mr Lampone is 100% honest. The problem is not there, it lies in the fact that what he produces can then be used to deceive and defraud. If I want to produce the most accurate copy, that is my absolute right; but I also have responsibilities, and in this case, it is to make sure that my creation will not be misused at a later date by someone intent on defrauding others. I am sure that Nack could throw a couple of very valid legal point in this discussion.

Marc

Unfortunately, you are right (I really didn´t want to have that NRA-style point of view. My apologies)

And, in your second statement, you are right too and I share it; however, if Mr. Lampone had manufactured this award with the intention of selling it, then it is accurate to blame his work as medals73 did. But perhaps the awards he is going to sell to finance his order of victory project will actually have copy marks and will keep the one he showed us for himself and will not sell it to anyone.

I defended Mr. Lampone´s work since I think medals73 was a little bit rough on his point of view against him.

he, in post #8, said he would add a sign (his initials), and would not sell it as original. Perhaps the other buyers would sell it as original trying to defraud, but having the initials engraved, and, of course, if the novice collector has researched and investigated enough to know that the soviets did not engrave their initials in awards before buying an order (I think we all agree that before a purchase of this kind you got to ask for second thoughts on it, and fools rush in without knowing nothing), the responsibility is not only Mr. Lampone´s, but it is shared with the collector.
I´m sure none of us would buy a LG I without having enough experience or at least without asking in this forum or in any other helpful source to know if it´s real or fake. If I do not do it and just buy the stuff, then I would feel myself like the only sucker.
And even if someone is not a collector and wants to buy a present for a friend who collects, there is always the chance to think twice.

[andrew6767]

Saying the serial number is a " must " and objecting to having " copy " on these items really doesnt do much to change my opinion of what I am seeing here.

[Lapa]

Originally Posted by andrew6767

Saying the serial number is a " must " and objecting to having " copy " on these items really doesnt do much to change my opinion of what I am seeing here.

Your honor, I rest my case.

Marc

[Nota Bene]

Originally Posted by medals73

Sorry. Presented as they are, with fraudulent manufacturer's mark and a illegitimate serial number, these are not copies. They are fakes, dangerous and intentional fakes. To assert otherwise or to make apologies is to become an accessory to the crime.

I couldn't agree more! makes me very

Alexei

[lampone4]

Thank you for all the opinions.
I have only some little considerations.

Novice Collectors
I think that who begins a collection, must consider the following:
1) He must decide the goal of the collection: high value ONLY genuine medals, if he want have also an economical value or he want to cover a historical period and so on. He must have clear the mode of the collection
2) the 90-95% or more of the today market is made from COPIES. There was exactly the opposite in the '90 years.
3) there is a lot of experts and senior collector that can help him with ease, through forum, notes or direct contact
4) he must use always the "good sense" and take in account the personal financies

The collection is a form of obsession or illness of various degrees: the patient-collector have to choose the level of gravity.
The first rule of a collector is so to understand what he collects. He must understand the values, the market, the history, the risks and so on. He must build a "culture" about his collection. This is the fun of collecting.

My personal experience as novice collector.
I purchased a Order of Friendship of the people for 350$. The price was high for me, but those was a medal I like much. So I decided to risk. I have read literature and web sites and joined forums like this one, to understand how to see if the medal was genuine. At the end, today I think I have a genuine order, but it is so very well made that I'm satisfied even if it is not genuine, for that price. But I dont collect only genuine ones, because I'm interested to historical reconstruction.
If the price had been of 3500$, I would certainly have asked the opinion of experts like the members of the present forum. For me the price had be too high every case.
For novice collectors the price must be a discriminant to decide.
It is dangerous that there are copies of the low value medals and orders, not of an order of 8000$ because these have some "insurances" (see the actual offer on a site of a genuine LG1 with McDaniel certificate).

But the novice collectors "must want" to be helped.
Another my experience was that I was selling an Ushakov order copy I purchased in the past. The offer text said "Order of Ushakov 1st class COPY". Starting price 80$. A potential buyer asked to me if it was original or copy!
I was discouraged!
But I fear when a person decides the good of the others. A collector must have a sort of "Self-awareness" (I hope the translation is correct).

We have also to commisurate the collectors market with a high diffusion market. The money of Monopoly game must have the sign "copy" because it can be used in "all days" life. The collector market is a very small market and the LG orders aren't like the bread.
I agree with the weapon reasoning in preceeding posts, but is seems a bit exaggerated for the context.

Back to my LG.
My first worry when I started with LG copies was that someone could purchase one and resell it as an original.
Today I have made the item and I've seen there is a lot of experts. So, now I'm not worry because my LG is nice and I like it, but I don't believe it may be confused as genuine, especially from an expert.

Selling the few pieces I have sold until today, I have reached a result that I have appreciated a lot. The buyers are so interested and are so good collectors that I have had exchange of opinions in a correspondence that I would not have thought when I started, in the correct spirit of the collection, like a collector-to-collector exchange.

I don't want to convince anyone, it is just my opinion.

[Lapa]

Lampone,

Originally Posted by lampone4

...I purchased a Order of Friendship of the people for 350$. The price was high for me, but those was a medal I like much. So I decided to risk. I have read literature and web sites and joined forums like this one, to understand how to see if the medal was genuine. At the end, today I think I have a genuine order, but it is so very well made that I'm satisfied even if it is not genuine, for that price...

Good for you if you have $350 available to buy fakes. Personally, I don't.

Originally Posted by lampone4

...It is dangerous that there are copies of the low value medals and orders, not of an order of 8000$ because these have some "insurances" (see the actual offer on a site of a genuine LG1 with McDaniel certificate)...

Well, any copy is dangerous in my book, not only high-priced ones. Now, regarding the "insurances" that you mentioned, you should at least once read the fine print: it is nothing more than an opinion. And there have been instances when McDaniel DID make mistakes (Nakhimov Order 1st class #107, Order for Service to the Motherland 1st and 2nd classes about which I personally know). And in the case of these orders, you are not talking $8000, you are talking 10 to 20 times more!!!

Originally Posted by lampone4

...We have also to commisurate the collectors market with a high diffusion market. The money of Monopoly game must have the sign "copy" because it can be used in "all days" life. The collector market is a very small market and the LG orders aren't like the bread...

It is not because someone does something bad on a small scale that it makes it any more acceptable. If it is bad, it is bad, no "if"s or "but"s about that.

Originally Posted by lampone4

...Today I have made the item and I've seen there is a lot of experts. So, now I'm not worry because my LG is nice and I like it, but I don't believe it may be confused as genuine, especially from an expert...

The problem, which you actually seem to miss, is that there are VERY FEW experts, and sometimes, even for them, it may be impossible to tell for sure if an item is genuine or not. Your production will most likely not find its way into an expert's collection, but in how many beginner or even advanced collector's collections are we going to find them in a few years, and all of them deemed to be originals by their unsuspecting owners?

Please understand that I have nothing against you personally, but toward your production as it stands, and I believe that I am not the only one to feel this way.

Marc