Naval Cap Badge

[Chris]

I found this; I think it’s a WW2 Senior Captains Badge. The central badge is three piece and made of silver, far more intricate than later versions.

Chris

[DougD]

Its a pre-1947 cap badge for a naval officer or NCO. Note the seperate rope from anchor; they are one cast in the postwar types.

DD

[Chris]

I agree that it is pre 1947 as for (or) an NCO badge, no way.

It is a senior officers badge as there are no gaps around the cockcade.

Cheers chris

[DougD]

sorry, but the 1940- 1946/7 cap badges were the same for NCO- captain in design (actually through admiral). There were some design differences here and there, but there is no special "captains" or "senior captains" cap badge.

The only difference is for technical services who had silver cap badges. Again, though, there is not a design difference in rank; there is simply the M1940 naval NCO / Officers cap badge.

The term "senior captain" of such is usually used by dealers to try to get more for the badge from novice collectors.

DD

[Chris]

Actually Doug, I got this for dollars few and nobody offered it as a senior Capt. badge.

My girlfriend who worked in a Soviet Naval tailors shop and her father being a Russian officer told me this.

Also I have a cap from a senior Capt who gave it to me personally after much vodka (good nite).

His badge was more recent, but identical except in gold and a one-piece central badge.

I have been unable to find any thing on the Internet about this.

I hate to be a doubting Thomas on this as I do respect what most mediators have to say with their detailed knowledge.

I have to admit until I see it in full colour I cannot believe that the Soviets who were very rank conscious when they got down to it issued the same types of badges to all and sundry.

I have virtually nil knowledge on this one and bought the badge for other reasons but my gut instinct tells me that NCO/Capts badges do not ring true.

Please show me the book where this info came from, I have a shirt handy to eat, actually some sauce as well cos I think I may loose this one heheh.

Regards Chris

[DougD]

Chris,

One of the problems you seem to have is that your "info" comes from people you know, or you heard this or that from this guy or that guy.

I have been a dealer is Soviet uniforms since 1994 and have had hundereds of uniforms in. I base my opinions on what I have observed and what I read in regulations.

1. Regulations never mention differences in quality or design for the naval officers badge based on rank. Its simply was "the" badge. Yes, there were differences in quality but that was due to where and when the items was made, but not rank (i.e. different badge for jr. and sr. officers). If you are the one challenging the regulations, saying that quality and rank went hand in hand, then you need to show this in regulations or research to prove your point. It can't really be based on your "instinct" since you really don't really have the background to make such assumptions ( no insult intended here). It takes many years. I made incorrect assumptions in the early years of my collecting, but after years of dealing with items I was able to make more balanced assesments.

2. I have had in about 40+ WWII soviet officers, NCO, and admirals caps. All in all there were no major differences in quality. Some of the admirals were ok, and yet some of the NCO's were just as nice (though made in 1940).

So, looking at the regs, and my exposure to the caps, I am telling you that there was no major difference in quality based only on rank.

If you accept this, great. if not, fine. I really don't want to debate it much further. As I said I have been doing this almost 10 years, have had in some of the best Red Navy items ever to be sold ( including Kuzntezovs VP and Yumashevs VP uniforms) and have been to 4 seperate soviet naval museums. I do not base my assumptions on instinct based on examination of one cap badge.

DD

[Chris]

So, looking at the regs, and my exposure to the caps, I am telling you that there was no major difference in quality based only on rank. Unquote

Doug Thanks.

Don't get me wrong, if this is what you have seen on all WW2 caps both NCO and Capts, great and thanks for the learning curve.

I must assume that my GF and her father must base their ideas on their experience with post WW2 badges, which do show a distinct difference.

No confrontation intended but just trying to find out about something I couldn’t find anywhere else.

Thank you again for your experience on this subject.

Shirt swallowed

Regards Chris

[DougD]

... i just think you need to present things like this in question format, rather than as fact; i.e. the thread might be better started as asking if there were "any differences in quality between ranks badges in the navy in WWII?"

You could then post your opinion, based on this badge, etc. It would then seem more open, like you were looking for info to exchange; i.e. the point of this forum.

But when you present it as fact, it becomes a bit more confrontational, sort of like" who does thins guy think he is..."

I would never go into the medals or orders section and present a fact based on a medal I got in; rather I would ask those who know more about orders/medals than I do for their opinion and see what they come up with.

DD

[Chris]

Doug

Is there any chance you can post a picture of a NCO's naval cap with this badge, I would sure like to show it to my Russian friends.

I canot find an example any where.

Thanks

Chris.

[DougD]

I have over 3000 original photos of eveything i have ever had in or sold, etc. Its great to have, but its all in 2 shoe boxes, so I'll have to dig in.

Many times there would be no difference between a jr. officer and NCO peaked cap. The "big anchor" NCO device / cap badge seems to have been much rarer and often NCO's wore the Jr. officer peaked cap. Why this is I have no idea.

DD