Order Of The Red Banner.

[Alex.S]

Hi

Most Likely It Should Be #2

Alex

[Art]

As long as we are speaking hypothetically :) this is from Kuchenko's Orders of the Soviet Republics, ISBN 5-7707-5732-9, p. 47, "Order of the Red Banner of Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic":

"The Order of the Red Banner of the RSFSR had one class only. On May 19th, 1920 the All-Russian Central Executive Committee passed a decree on repeated awarding with the Order of the Red Banner. For those awarded two or three times and more, special insignia were made.

The head of the Engineering Division of the Supply Department of Voronezh Military Commissariat, M.S. Kiselev became the first chevalier (I'm assuming he is using this word in the meaning of a "chivalrous individual") of the Order of the Red Banner of Labour RSFSR marked as 2nd. (I know the author has included the RSFSR award for the Red Banner of Labor here, instead of the RSFSR ORB. I didn't see M.C. Kиселев mentioned in either the ORB or ORBL list of recipients the author appends to each section) The order marked with figures 3 and 4 belonged to Jan Fabritsius who was rewarded with the Order of Red Banner of Labour 4 times. (again he is saying ORBL, yet his name appears in the list of recipients for ORB. He was awarded first; #4 on 10.3.1919, his second; #337 on 13.10.1919; his third; #1 on 23.03.1921 and his fourth; #1 on 31.12.1921).

After formation of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, the Central Executive Committee of the USSR issued a decree on introducing the All-Union Order of the Red Banner. It was decided that the order design should be left unchanged while the letters of RSFSR were to be replaced with USSR letters. (nothing new there)

However, the Leningrad Mint was not in a hurry to start manufacturing new orders. By the beginning of the 1925 Presidium of the All-Russian Central Executive Committee, several thousand orders of the Red Banner of the RSFSR had accumulated, therefore it was decided to proceed with awarding the republican order on behalf of the Central Executive Committee of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and Revolutionary Committee of the USSR.

Unfortunately there were alot of exceptions to this rule. Actually all the chevaliers of the first republican order that went through the purges of Stalin and the Great Patriotic War had to exchange their previous awards for the new ones in compliance with new regulations addressing the wearing and attaching of awards to clothing. Therefore the Order of the Red Banner of the RSFSR is quite rare in spite of a great number of the orders manufactured. (well, we knew that part)

The resolution of the Presidium of the Central Executive Committee of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics as of 5 May 1930 read that all chevaliers of the order of the Red Banner of the RSFSR were granted equal privileges and rights with those awarded with the Order of the Red Banner of the USSR."

My opinion, a very spotty regulation. I'm thinking it would depend on what awards they had on site at the time you received number 2.

[medals73]

Thanks, all. Still trying to figure out the dynamics of a speciifc case (which, if it weren't discussed on another forum, I'd link).

He clearly wore his RSFSR Red Banner until he was killed outside Leningrad in 1941 (even in the coffin-picture), with a posthumous -- so never actually issued -- CCCP Red Banner. A purge-survivor, barely.

[ibaya]

Here's my in-a-few-words take:

When the All-Union Order of the Red Banner was established, all previous republic-issued Red Banners were considered equivalent; the thinking was that the republic orders were simply awarded before the single one was established, and this would provide historical continuity. If the award was lost, destroyed, or rescinded and then restored, the All-Union award was usually given with the same low serial number. The same applied to the labor version. Paul's McDaniel's book mentions that contemporary RSFSR versions were manufactured in the 80's as replacements, right down to the screwback, but the numbers involved would make them exceptions to the rule.

So if, for example, an RSFSR Red Banner recipient received subsequent Red Banner, it would be the USSR version with a numeral, unless this was during the period when they were depleting existing stock.

There are cases were intrepid recipients did not want to turn in their original award to comply with new regulations, so they privately had the screwpost cut and a suspension ring added to hang from a five-sided suspension. So there could be examples of RSFSR Red Banners hanging next to numbered USSR Red Banners.

And there are also examples where, like some multiple awardees of the Order of Glory, they did not get the proper subsequent class but instead got the same first-time-award version, and then never got around or desired to obtain the proper ones!

[ericlida]

Currently on E:
One-of-a-kind GOLD re-issue order of the military Red Banner of the RSFSR which was issued by the Moscow Mint to be presented to the family of the Soviet Civil War hero Jan Fabritsius.
According to my consignor, this order was made by the State Moscow mint in 1977 to be presented to surviving members of the Fabritsius family to commemorate the 100th anniversary of his birth. This one of the kind item, and has practically no analogs in private collections. It was purchased in early 1990's in Lithuania direct from the members of Fabritsius family. Guaranteed to be genuine c. 1977 government re-issue award.
Description:
Made of solid gold (!) with red and white enamel. Comes with an original gold (!) washer and screw nut. Marked with a number 4 on the washer and the back of the order. Near mint condition.

What do you think guys???? :confused:

[Eryk]

Would "solid gold" be viable in something so thin? Never handled a mirror-back but the edges look very thin. And gold is very soft, of course.

Just at thought on edit: if authentic, why advertise it here, on American e? Seems such a piece would be valued much more highly in present day Russia.

[Lapa]

Eric,

That is a nice quality thing they offer, for once. Almost a relief :)

Marc

[Esteban_cool]

the first thing I noticed and didn´t like (altough I have seen a real ORB only once in my life :() were the writing lines on the flag; they´re supposed to follow the "wave" of it.

[EricFG]

Sweet!!! I'm ordering two. ;)

BTW, solid gold (24 karat) is soft. 18, 14 and 10 karat are progressively harder.

[Jeffrey Meffert]

Closing bid was $3050. Considering what a real RSFSR ORB would go for, it sounds like folks weren't convinced of it's value as a "special reissue".