Ushakov.

Tal Inbar · 07-01-2002, 08:58 AM

Hello

In the community of collectors there is a believe that there are around 5 Ushakov 1st class in private collections. Do you know something else?

This one is now on sale (with COA by MD and a rating of 10/10!)

CZ · 07-01-2002, 10:12 AM

Tal,

what's the price?

Looks almost like fresh from the mint.

Regards from Vienna

Tal Inbar · 07-01-2002, 10:18 AM

I think in the range of $60,000 .
(reliable source helped with the figure...)

Do you want a discount?;)

Nota Bene · 07-01-2002, 05:54 PM

I would be very careful about buying such an Order. If it was stolen the Militia are probably already looking for it through the Interpol.

I have only seen original in a museum, but if you compare it with photos it is kinda crude.

Alexei

Tal Inbar · 07-02-2002, 03:58 PM

Chris,

That's the one. I am sure that your post will be "severely" eddited, since we are not naming deallers...

However, it is extrimely unlikely that the seller offer a copy, since he state that there is authentication by MD.

Speaking of MD, in his book there is Ushakov 1st, No. 29. (In M/S book it mention that this order awarded to a frigate unite of the Black sea).

According to M/S, there are 26 people who got the Ushakov 1st class.

The S/N on the award for sale is not shown, but could be told by the seller: "Award number will be disclosed upon a serious inquiry only.".

Tal

***Art*** · 07-02-2002, 04:55 PM

I've seen so many fakes of the higher Orders that I would require some rock-solid provenance ( and by this I mean a handshake with the actual person it was awarded to, or their close family, and an interview ) to plunk down $60,000. If this couldn't be arranged, I would run, not walk, away from the deal. I don't know about you guys, but I've seen more fake Ushakov's than real ones.

It could be authenticated by McDaniel, Sotheby's, Christies, etc. etc..I trust no one when it comes to something of such value. Of course I would have another set of eyes take a look at it AFTER I had been satisfied that the individual and their historical relevance to the award were authentic.

Art

Ed Maier · 07-03-2002, 08:31 AM

Before 1976, all awards were considered "property of the State" and had to be returned to the State upon the death of the reciepient with the exception of the Orders of the GReat Patriotic War which were allowed to be keep be the family. After 1976 the law changed and the family could keep all of the awards. (When you see large groups with only OGPWs left, this is usually a sign that the person died before 1976. I have even see an Order Book where the family wrote which awards were returned and when.)

As for the awards being "stolen" this is a tricky question as well. If you are talking about pre-1976 items where they came from the archives, someone usually sold them. Since that someone usually worked for the State, it would be fairly embarrising for the State to pursue this avenue. Although I'm sure you could "show" that they were stolen at one point.

When you talk about awards being stolen from a family, in many cases, but not all, the family will sell the medals and report them stolen to cover their rear-ends. In the early days of collecting, it was common to find peices with family altered serial numbers (they would add a 1 or something) hoping to avoid any possible trace back to them.

In the end, I think this comes back to a case of government embarrisment over anything else. After all, the only reason the people were selling/stealing the awards was because of the utter collapse of the Russian state and its inability to take care of the basic responsibilities of Government. I think that the natural economic forces will correct much of the "flight" of these awards and collectors and private organizations will bring them back to Russia by buying them overseas as it becomes profitable to do so.

Just my opinion,
Ed

scook17 · 07-06-2002, 06:32 PM

If I buy a medal/order from a medal dealer here in the UK or US, ie not in Russia, what does it matter that Russia says it's illegal to sell medals?

As a UK citizen, I'm covered by UK law, and not Russian law. The Russian government has no duristiction over me, as I'm not one of their citizens.

Kind Regards,
Shane Cook.

Nota Bene · 07-07-2002, 02:51 PM

Shane,

You are absolutely correct, but what if an award was stollen, and is wanted by the FSB throught the Interpol...

Alexei

***Art*** · 07-07-2002, 05:39 PM

Or worse, what if a guy sells the award, then later claims it was stolen?

07-01-2002, 10:12 AM	#2
CZ Banned Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 103	How much - just for information? Tal, what's the price? Looks almost like fresh from the mint. Regards from Vienna

07-01-2002, 10:18 AM	#3
Tal Inbar Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Israel Age: 55 Posts: 2,302	I think in the range of $60,000 . (reliable source helped with the figure...) Do you want a discount?;) Last edited by Tal Inbar; 07-01-2002 at 04:12 PM.

07-02-2002, 04:55 PM	#6
*Art* Forum Founder Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Buffalo NY Age: 58 Posts: 1,646	I've seen so many fakes of the higher Orders that I would require some rock-solid provenance ( and by this I mean a handshake with the actual person it was awarded to, or their close family, and an interview ) to plunk down $60,000. If this couldn't be arranged, I would run, not walk, away from the deal. I don't know about you guys, but I've seen more fake Ushakov's than real ones. It could be authenticated by McDaniel, Sotheby's, Christies, etc. etc..I trust no one when it comes to something of such value. Of course I would have another set of eyes take a look at it AFTER I had been satisfied that the individual and their historical relevance to the award were authentic. Art __________________ Visit the main site to the forum: The Soviet Military Awards Page Want to sell awards on the forum? Please read the FAQ Important Links: Forum announcements and rules \| Image posting FAQ

07-03-2002, 08:31 AM	#7
Ed Maier Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Frederick, MD Age: 55 Posts: 203	Medal Laws Before 1976, all awards were considered "property of the State" and had to be returned to the State upon the death of the reciepient with the exception of the Orders of the GReat Patriotic War which were allowed to be keep be the family. After 1976 the law changed and the family could keep all of the awards. (When you see large groups with only OGPWs left, this is usually a sign that the person died before 1976. I have even see an Order Book where the family wrote which awards were returned and when.) As for the awards being "stolen" this is a tricky question as well. If you are talking about pre-1976 items where they came from the archives, someone usually sold them. Since that someone usually worked for the State, it would be fairly embarrising for the State to pursue this avenue. Although I'm sure you could "show" that they were stolen at one point. When you talk about awards being stolen from a family, in many cases, but not all, the family will sell the medals and report them stolen to cover their rear-ends. In the early days of collecting, it was common to find peices with family altered serial numbers (they would add a 1 or something) hoping to avoid any possible trace back to them. In the end, I think this comes back to a case of government embarrisment over anything else. After all, the only reason the people were selling/stealing the awards was because of the utter collapse of the Russian state and its inability to take care of the basic responsibilities of Government. I think that the natural economic forces will correct much of the "flight" of these awards and collectors and private organizations will bring them back to Russia by buying them overseas as it becomes profitable to do so. Just my opinion, Ed

07-07-2002, 05:39 PM	#10
*Art* Forum Founder Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Buffalo NY Age: 58 Posts: 1,646	Or worse, what if a guy sells the award, then later claims it was stolen? __________________ Visit the main site to the forum: The Soviet Military Awards Page Want to sell awards on the forum? Please read the FAQ Important Links: Forum announcements and rules \| Image posting FAQ

07-01-2002, 05:54 PM	#4
Nota Bene Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: New York USA Posts: 2,296	I would be very careful about buying such an Order. If it was stolen the Militia are probably already looking for it through the Interpol. I have only seen original in a museum, but if you compare it with photos it is kinda crude. Alexei

07-02-2002, 03:58 PM	#5
Tal Inbar Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Israel Age: 55 Posts: 2,302	Chris, That's the one. I am sure that your post will be "severely" eddited, since we are not naming deallers... However, it is extrimely unlikely that the seller offer a copy, since he state that there is authentication by MD. Speaking of MD, in his book there is Ushakov 1st, No. 29. (In M/S book it mention that this order awarded to a frigate unite of the Black sea). According to M/S, there are 26 people who got the Ushakov 1st class. The S/N on the award for sale is not shown, but could be told by the seller: "Award number will be disclosed upon a serious inquiry only.". Tal

07-06-2002, 06:32 PM	#8
scook17 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 220	If I buy a medal/order from a medal dealer here in the UK or US, ie not in Russia, what does it matter that Russia says it's illegal to sell medals? As a UK citizen, I'm covered by UK law, and not Russian law. The Russian government has no duristiction over me, as I'm not one of their citizens. Kind Regards, Shane Cook.

07-07-2002, 02:51 PM	#9
Nota Bene Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: New York USA Posts: 2,296	Shane, You are absolutely correct, but what if an award was stollen, and is wanted by the FSB throught the Interpol... Alexei

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