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Fake Orders Questions, answers and General Information pertaining to fakes and copies of Orders and related items.

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Old 10-15-2013, 01:59 AM   #101
desantnik
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Re: Fake Orders of the Red Star

And I'm willing to bet awarded by the 2 Belorussian Front.
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Old 10-22-2013, 08:28 PM   #102
Snameni
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G’day to everyone!!
I just received this ORS and I have some doubts about this order…. The “horseshoe” medallion looks not so good, the letters are not very “sharp” (the L , the T and the I on PROLETARII look very awful, the exclamation mark looks like I) and the letters’ background is not smooth…..looks actually as it is a cast made, but the soldier’s background is smooth….. If it was a cast made the soldier’s background should be rough too… but it is not…
The enamel is real, there is no evidence the numbers have been buffered, but I have no idea about the screw base…..
The weight of this ORS (without the screwback plate) is 30.07 grms.
Any opinion about this ORS is deeply appreciated!!
Thank you very much for your time!!
Yannis
ORS 1.jpgORS 2.jpgORS 3.jpgORS 4.jpgORS 5.jpgORS 6.jpgORS 8.jpgORS 9.jpg
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Old 10-23-2013, 05:17 AM   #103
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Re: Fake Orders of the Red Star

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snameni View Post
I just received this ORS and I have some doubts about this order…
I have more than some doubt, even if the serial is well written, the tips of the star are rounded, and it seems screwpost added.
A comparison with my RS.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg ORS 1.jpg (50.0 KB, 16 views)
File Type: jpg orders_190509_2.jpg (87.9 KB, 17 views)
File Type: jpg orders_190509_2a.jpg (85.7 KB, 22 views)
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Old 10-23-2013, 05:49 AM   #104
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Re: Fake Orders of the Red Star

I share that opinion. Also the patina seems to be universally applied to the rear.

I would stay well clear.
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Old 10-23-2013, 07:06 AM   #105
Bill Garvy
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Re: Fake Orders of the Red Star

I am very ambivalent about the example in post #786. It is not so the details of the obverse that concern me so much as what appears to be the unusual rough-hewn patination of the reverse and the manner in which the screw post is attached. In cases like this I tend to follow my instincts which seem to indicate something is not quite right.

I am posting an example from the collection, #62640, less than 300 numbers away, in a crudely assembled side by side comparison. I trust you do not object to my use of your photograph. Sometimes a picture is worth more than a thousand words.
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File Type: jpg 62640.JPG (41.4 KB, 27 views)
File Type: jpg 62901.JPG (49.3 KB, 29 views)
File Type: jpg 62640 & 62901.JPG (59.9 KB, 24 views)
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Old 10-23-2013, 07:27 AM   #106
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Re: Fake Orders of the Red Star

Here is my 2 kopeks

ORS%201.jpg

The Green dashes are to highlight clear traces of where the Screwplate has marked the reverse.

The lack of these markings on the back of the 7, 5 & 3 o'clock arms, seems to me to show that the surface has been altered, other wise the marks would be present.

The pink line shows to me a distinct mark between altered and unaltered surface,

The top and 9 oclock arms have the shagreen reverse and normal patina.

The 7, 5, & 3 o'clock arms have lost this and are made up of dull grey and hundreds of scratch marks.

I dont know if this is truly indicates a 100% fake or not or if i'm reading things that aren't there, but it makes me uncomfortable.
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Old 10-23-2013, 08:40 AM   #107
Bill Garvy
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Re: Fake Orders of the Red Star

Precisely, at best an altered original Red Star; good eye, Tom. . .
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Old 10-24-2013, 09:56 PM   #108
Snameni
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Re: Fake Orders of the Red Star

Thank you very much for your help and all the time you have spent for this ORS… I agree with you but this ORS is not an easy case… I checked the thickness of each arm of the star in 2 points with a micrometer but I did not find any discrepancies….. at 12 o’clock : 3.23 mm/3.47 mm, at 3 o’clock : 3.21 mm/3.42 mm, at 5 o’clock : 3.25 mm/3.46 mm, at 7 o’clock : 3.24 mm/3.44 mm and at 9 o’clock : 3.23 mm/3.48 mm
I checked the clearance between the screwplate and the surface of the order using a 0.08mm filler gauge and at 12 o’clock is loose, at 3 o’clock is tight on the lower contact point, at 5 o’clock is too tight, at 7 o’clock is too tight and at 9 o’clock is tight on the lower point (same as 3 o’clock).
If we compare those 2 results, I think the non contact marks on the reverse is not because any buffering out of the surface, but because the screw post is not straight… maybe because any thermal stress from the soldering??
This ORS measures 45.65mm in height and 48.00mm in width and weights 30.07 grams. The “horseshoe” medallion measures 20.44mm (18.99 mm from 12 to 6 o’clock) in height and 21.03mm in width…
I examined the reverse surface with x60 and x100 magnification glasses and they are countless “straight line” scratches all over the place… something I haven’t seen before… and the inscription around the “horseshoe” looks very awful under x100 magnification… I’m thinking I will return it to the dealer…..
I really do appreciate your time and your effort!! You have done a great job!!
Yannis
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Old 11-13-2013, 09:32 AM   #109
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Re: Fake Orders of the Red Star

Hello,

I have doubt in order document.
The order document probably original, but that serial number is strange.


The order of the Red Star which decreed on 1945, was given on October, 1990.

But that serial number is 3674620. Is this correct number in 1990? (Just some error because of late awarding?)

Please let me know...


p.s Why he receive his order so late?
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Old 11-13-2013, 10:42 AM   #110
Bill Garvy
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Re: Fake Orders of the Red Star

Yes, it sounds correct.

I have the following in the collection:

-#3836254 Awarded to Sergeant Ivan Shoktko, Anti-tank Rifle Squad Commander, 641st Rifle Regiment, 165th Rifle Division, for action in January, 1945. Originally recommended for an Order of the Patriotic War, 2nd Class, February 28th, 1945, the recommendation was downgraded to an Order of the Red Star, April 12th, 1945. His Order of the Red Star was not received until December 3rd, 1992.

-#3714824 Awarded to Junior Lieutenant Aleksandr Nikolaevich Sogomonov, 223rd Rifle Division, 5th Army, 2nd Ukrainian Front – MG Platoon Leader, for serious wounds received December 10th, 1943. Originally recommended for an Order of the Patriotic War, 2nd Class, on August 11th, 1981, the recommendation was downgraded to an Order of the Red Star on September 10th, 1982. His Order of the Red Star was finally conferred by an Edict of the Supreme Soviet USSR dated July 5th, 1983 concerning the awarding of decorations of the USSR to active participants of the Great Patriotic War who received wounds in combat.

-#3672543 Awarded to Junior Lieutenant Aleksandr M o i s e evich Stolyarenko, a graduate of the Charkow Tank School (October, 1942). He was a tank commander in 30th Guards Tank Brigade. He was heavily wounded near Leningrad on February 12th, 1943, and was honorably discharged October 20th, 1943. He received his Red Star in 1970.

-#3671477 Awarded to Junior Lieutenant Zaitsev, who served as a Deputy Rifle Battalion commander in the 354th Rifle Division. He was wounded several times, one heavy and one light, the light one in February, 1942, and the heavy wound in August, 1942.

There could be many hypothetical reasons for the late awarding, but most notably they were for wounds.

Last edited by Bill Garvy; 11-13-2013 at 10:45 AM.
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