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04-13-2005, 07:45 PM | #11 |
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Ron,
Gladly, but please give me a couple of days. I'll do some digging on the weekend. These logs were mantained by Stalin's personal secretary Poskrebishev, and some of them were lost, or at least are not yet found. I am surprised that Krustchev (or how you guys spell him in English ) did not order them destroyed, because it was him, who was spreading this lie. Alexei |
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04-13-2005, 07:54 PM | #12 | |
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Quote:
Actually, I've seen the listing of Stalin's daily schedule for the first couple weeks of the War in several places. One was on the web, another in a book I own. Now if I could just remember where they were!!! Dave |
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04-13-2005, 07:59 PM | #13 |
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Dave,
Same problem Alexei |
04-14-2005, 05:53 AM | #14 |
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Hello Alexei and Dave,
I would appreciate any info you guys have to share on the subject. Thank you both for your responses. Collecting Soviet awards is so intrically linked to history the two subjects in my opinion go hand in hand. What Stalin did in reaction to Barbarossa is of great interest to me. And I can only speculate that Khruschev didn't order documents destroyed because he wielded less ultimate power than Stalin did. As was evidenced by his eventual removal from power. Obviously without Barbarossa there would be no Wartime Orders and Medals for all of us to collect! To me it has always come down to the spirit shown by the peoples of Russia defending their homelands and famillies against the Nazi invasion. The leadership of the former USSR played a part for sure but awards and medals are given to people. It is my way of keeping the memory all too often overlooked in the West that in WWII as it is known here: the "Patriotic War" (to Russians and Ukrainians and Belorussians and all the other Peoples of the Former USSR) the USSR suffered by most accounts at least 25,000,000 dead probably much more this was at that time more than the entire population of my home country Canada. To think of this in perspective Canada today has about 34,000,000 people. In the West this is sometimes mentionned but we usually hear more about how D-Day was the pivotal event of the War in Europe ask any North American (except of course a collector of Soviet Awards) what the Battle of Stalingrad or the Siege of Leningrad are and I wager in general you will get a blank look and no answer. Ron |
04-14-2005, 06:47 AM | #15 |
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Here's an excerpt from an article I found online... Now just to find where the schedule was online!
*** Further to the very interesting article by Cynthia A Roberts, 'Planning for War: the Red Army and the Catastrophe of 1941', Europe-Asia Studies, 47, 8, 1995, pp. 1293-1326, I would like to comment on her opening remark that 'the Soviet dictator went into self-imposed seclusion' (p. 1293). With all due respect, there would now appear to be a large body of evidence to show that, far from disappearing and hiding either in his private apartments in the Kremlin, or to his dacha at Kuntsevo, certainly during the first week of the Soviet-German War, Stalin would appear to have stuck to a very arduous work routine, displaying little of the panic and fear that is generally attributed to him, both by previous Western and Russian historians. For instance, according to extracts published from his appointments diary, detailing all of Stalin's meetings held throughout the first week of the war, 22-28 June inclusive, on the very first day of the war (22 June), Stalin's official working-day began at 05.45 and ended at 16.45.(1) However, according to the most recent unedited version of Zhukov's me***rs, Stalin's working-day began even earlier than that, at 04.30, when he telephoned Stalin to break the news of the German bombardment.(2) On the very first day of the attack, Stalin held meetings with a variety of senior Soviet government and military figures, including Molotov (People's Commissar for Foreign Affairs), Timoshenko (People's Commissar for Defence), Zhukov (Chief of Staff of the Red Army), Kuznetsov (Commander of both North Caucasus and Baltic Military Districts), and Shaposhnikov (Deputy People's Commissar for Defence). All in all, on the very first day of the attack Stalin held meetings with over 15 individual members of the Soviet government and military apparatus.(3) Examining his appointments diary further reveals that during the opening week of the war Stalin's officially recorded shortest working-day was 24 June, lasting a little over five hours, but this followed a working-day (23 June) that apparently fell just short of 24 hours - 22 hours and 35 minutes!(4) Similarly, on 25/26 June Stalin is on record as having 24 hours of meetings.(5) On both 26 and 27 June his recorded working-days ran to a little over ten hours each and, possibly as a result of this physically and mentally punishing schedule, his working-day for 28 June again lasted a little over five hours. Thus, in sum total, of 168 hours (representing the entire week 22-28 June inclusive) Stalin is officially recorded as holding meetings totalling 88 hours and 40 minutes in duration.(6) In overall terms, according to the available historical evidence, Stalin held 158 meetings, involving 45 named senior Soviet government and military figures during this entire period.(7) Source: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...48/ai_18678012 |
04-14-2005, 11:06 AM | #16 |
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Dave,
Thanks a lot for finding this excellent article. I just don't know who wrote it! Can't find the name of the author on that page! Any idea? Anyway, this clearly denies what I've always read and heard on the West about Stalin's reaction to Barbarossa. As for Ron, the only version I knew was that he got depressed and hidde on his dacha for some time. And I've read that again and again in every book I have about WWII in the East, as well as I've heard it in every documentary I've seen covering that period of History. It wouldn't surprise me at all that this lie was invented by Krustchev, as pointed out by Alexei. Thanks, Dolf |
04-14-2005, 03:50 PM | #17 |
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Thanks Dave,
I have read the link you gave I am grateful you included it. I stand corrected, I too had never come across any of these references in anything I had read before. In light of this I will no longer wonder about those openning days of the War for Russia. I shall have to read some more recent publications than those I have been consulting. It just goes to show that history is constantly being revised as new facts come into the light of day. Ron |
04-16-2005, 04:37 PM | #18 |
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Guys,
Sorry it took me a while. Dave has already answered the question, so here's just some additional information. The logs I have mentioned were first published in "Istorichesky Arkhiv" (History Archive) in 1996, Nos 2-4. They record only visits in Kremlin and Kirov-Street, but he had also had visitors in his dacha in Kuntsevo. June 22, 1941: Starts 5.45 AM - ends 4.45 PM, visitors: Molotov, Beria, Timoshenko, Mekhils, Zhukov, Malenkov, Mikoyan, Kaganovitch, Voroshilov, Vishinsky, Kuznetsov, Dimitrov, Manuilsky, Kuznetsov, Mikoyan, Molotov, Voroshilov, Beria, Malenkov, Voroshilov, Mikoyan, Vishinsky, Shaposhnikov, Timoshenko, Zhukov, Vatutin, Kuznetsov, Kulik, Beria; Jene 23, 1941: Starts 3.20 AM - ends 1.25 AM next day, visitors: Molotov, Voroshilov, Beria, Timoshenko, Vatutin, Kuznetsov, Kaganovitch, Zhigarev, Molotov, Zhigarev, Timoshenko, Merkulov, Voroshilov, Voznesentsky, Mekhlis, Kaganovitch, Vatutin, Timoshenko, Kuznetsov, Beria, Vlasik. These two days are just an example, but I have looked through the entire document, and it appears, that he did not have any days off till the end of the war. There was another lie about Stalin, that in fall 1941 he left for Kuibishev together with the entire Soviet Government, and this document also proves it to be a lie. Alexei |
04-16-2005, 05:27 PM | #19 |
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Alexei,
Do you know if these logs or these "Istorichesky Arkhiv" have been published in English, and/or in the West, or if we can have access to them on the Web (in English)? Thanks a lot, Dolf |
04-17-2005, 07:48 AM | #20 |
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Thank you Alexei. I too would like to know if these are available in English.
Ron |
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