Weapon factory mark

Al-muell · 10-14-2003, 01:23 PM

I know it's not the proper place for this, but can someone tell me what factory is this? Tula?

skipper1939 · 10-14-2003, 06:53 PM

Yes, it is the design adopted for Tula after 1928. Nice looking Nagant - if only it could talk! I would hope that weapons symbols could be a part of the forum. At least in a near neighborhood. There is a carry over of certain symbols between awards, factory stamps, and markings on other Russian and Soviet era items.

Dr. Bob Clawson

Nota Bene · 10-15-2003, 12:27 AM

Al-muell,

This is IZh factory mark - star and arrow, used for military weapons.

Alexei

skipper1939 · 10-15-2003, 06:07 AM

I think that you will find that the Izhevsk mark is a triangle with a similar arrow in it, also authorized in 1928. The star is Tula. Most Soviet firearms reference books have logo keys at the back.

Dr. Bob

Nota Bene · 10-15-2003, 10:27 AM

Dr. Bob,

If I remember correctly, IZh used triangle, shield, rounded at the bottom, and oval with an arrow. TOZ used the star, but without the arrow.

Alexei

skipper1939 · 10-15-2003, 06:11 PM

Privyet Alexei:

All of my reference books show the Tula star with an arrow in it. The arrow is exactly the same design as the one used for Izhev.

I have in my firearms collection, a Nagant revolver made in 1930 with a perfect Tula star and a clear arrow inside of it. It was unissued and I bought it in perfect condition. The examples of the Izhevsk triangle show two long sides with a shorter but flat bottom and the same arrow inside.

I wonder if the arrow is simply a symbol based on the verb "to shoot" in Russian?

I also think, but do not know for sure, that a plain star with nohting in it was used by the Red Army as a sign of a weapon or piece of field gear having been refurbished. It was used that way inside of SSh-39 anbd SSh-40 model helmets and was I am pretty sure, the standard refurbishment mark on firearms.

Poka,

Bob

Al-muell · 10-16-2003, 02:35 AM

Dr Bob and Alexei,
You both seem to be pretty sure of Your opinions. My suggest is that You list the reference material You are basing on, because I am not the one to judge.
I am not an expert, but is it possible that both this factories used this mark for some time?
If this can help - this Nagant comes from 30's (probably 1937 or 39, but the last number is hardly visible).
I doubt there was any difference in general shape, but here's the photo (that red "rust" is just because of poor quality of the photo).

skipper1939 · 10-16-2003, 06:18 AM

Al-Muel:

For instance, the standard reference, THE MOISIN-NAGANT RIFLE, by Terence W. Lapin has a table of manufacturers' marks from pre-revolutionary to Soviet times on pp. 184-193. The page dealing specifically with Tula and Izhevsk is p. 191. My judgment is that there is not much ambiguity involved and there is no evidence that either used anything but their own logos.

I do have a very real example of a pristine Nagant pistol with the Tula mark completely intact. I'm not quite sure how to attach photos, but if you wish, I can try to give you pictures of the reference page as well as the revolver. I have a couple of Izhevsk rifles with the triangle mark, as well.

I assume that yours was ground dug and is not in working order. I regularly fire mine at a range nearby. It is the officers' double action although only a very strong hand can make it fire double action because of the notoriously stiff leaf spring.

Dr. Bob

Al-muell · 10-20-2003, 05:53 AM

Thanks
I would be glad to see this pictures of course.

The revolver I have is, as You have noticed not in working condition but if it were, I would not be able to post this, as the prison residents ar not allowed to acces internet :) and it's not so easy (and/or cheap) to get a license here...

The fact is that this revolver, regardless it's state, is a nice piece of history to me. Altough it's impossible to reconstruct it's story because of lack of visible number, some other things, such as date of production or place of finding may give some information on it.
And again, it doesn't look as bad as on this picture.

HuliganRS · 10-20-2003, 11:47 AM

Either way, it's an excellent piece of history!!!
Where did you find it? Was there a major battle in that area?

Is it possible to clean/restore items like this?

Rusty.

10-20-2003, 11:47 AM	#10
HuliganRS Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Illinois - U.S.A. Age: 47 Posts: 1,023	Either way, it's an excellent piece of history!!! Where did you find it? Was there a major battle in that area? Is it possible to clean/restore items like this? Rusty. __________________ "Be civil to all, sociable to many, familiar with few, friend to one, enemy to none." Benjamin Franklin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Member #193

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10-14-2003, 06:53 PM	#2
skipper1939 Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Kent, Ohio - USA Age: 85 Posts: 61	Yes, it is the design adopted for Tula after 1928. Nice looking Nagant - if only it could talk! I would hope that weapons symbols could be a part of the forum. At least in a near neighborhood. There is a carry over of certain symbols between awards, factory stamps, and markings on other Russian and Soviet era items. Dr. Bob Clawson

10-15-2003, 12:27 AM	#3
Nota Bene Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: New York USA Posts: 2,296	Al-muell, This is IZh factory mark - star and arrow, used for military weapons. Alexei

10-15-2003, 06:07 AM	#4
skipper1939 Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Kent, Ohio - USA Age: 85 Posts: 61	I think that you will find that the Izhevsk mark is a triangle with a similar arrow in it, also authorized in 1928. The star is Tula. Most Soviet firearms reference books have logo keys at the back. Dr. Bob

10-15-2003, 10:27 AM	#5
Nota Bene Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: New York USA Posts: 2,296	Dr. Bob, If I remember correctly, IZh used triangle, shield, rounded at the bottom, and oval with an arrow. TOZ used the star, but without the arrow. Alexei

10-15-2003, 06:11 PM	#6
skipper1939 Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Kent, Ohio - USA Age: 85 Posts: 61	Privyet Alexei: All of my reference books show the Tula star with an arrow in it. The arrow is exactly the same design as the one used for Izhev. I have in my firearms collection, a Nagant revolver made in 1930 with a perfect Tula star and a clear arrow inside of it. It was unissued and I bought it in perfect condition. The examples of the Izhevsk triangle show two long sides with a shorter but flat bottom and the same arrow inside. I wonder if the arrow is simply a symbol based on the verb "to shoot" in Russian? I also think, but do not know for sure, that a plain star with nohting in it was used by the Red Army as a sign of a weapon or piece of field gear having been refurbished. It was used that way inside of SSh-39 anbd SSh-40 model helmets and was I am pretty sure, the standard refurbishment mark on firearms. Poka, Bob

10-16-2003, 06:18 AM	#8
skipper1939 Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Kent, Ohio - USA Age: 85 Posts: 61	Al-Muel: For instance, the standard reference, THE MOISIN-NAGANT RIFLE, by Terence W. Lapin has a table of manufacturers' marks from pre-revolutionary to Soviet times on pp. 184-193. The page dealing specifically with Tula and Izhevsk is p. 191. My judgment is that there is not much ambiguity involved and there is no evidence that either used anything but their own logos. I do have a very real example of a pristine Nagant pistol with the Tula mark completely intact. I'm not quite sure how to attach photos, but if you wish, I can try to give you pictures of the reference page as well as the revolver. I have a couple of Izhevsk rifles with the triangle mark, as well. I assume that yours was ground dug and is not in working order. I regularly fire mine at a range nearby. It is the officers' double action although only a very strong hand can make it fire double action because of the notoriously stiff leaf spring. Dr. Bob

10-20-2003, 05:53 AM	#9
Al-muell Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Wrocław, Poland Posts: 1,828	Thanks I would be glad to see this pictures of course. The revolver I have is, as You have noticed not in working condition but if it were, I would not be able to post this, as the prison residents ar not allowed to acces internet :) and it's not so easy (and/or cheap) to get a license here... The fact is that this revolver, regardless it's state, is a nice piece of history to me. Altough it's impossible to reconstruct it's story because of lack of visible number, some other things, such as date of production or place of finding may give some information on it. And again, it doesn't look as bad as on this picture.

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