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Soviet Orders Physical Characteristics, History, Types/Variations, Identification, Collecting Stories, anything relevant to the collecting of authentic Soviet Orders (Ордена СССР) is here.

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Old 11-29-2002, 04:31 PM   #21
Nota Bene
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Eric,

I believe the answer is simple - the 3rd class you have posted is genuine, and the 2nd class is not.

Best regards,

Alexei
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Old 11-29-2002, 08:13 PM   #22
Brian
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Alexei,

I assume you are saying that you think that the order with serial #122446 has been gold plated to pass off as a 2nd class award. If this is the case, would someone actually go through the trouble to take a late numbered 3rd class award, gold plate it to look like a 2nd class award, and NOT alter the serial number to at least make it a plausable fake?

It's just awfully hard to believe that anyone would fall for this.

Brian
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Old 11-30-2002, 05:00 AM   #23
Chris
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The highest number observed in PMcD book is 2951 for a 2nd class. I am sure there are some higher knocking around but not in the 122k league.

My opinion

If this is the case, would someone actually go through the trouble to take a late numbered 3rd class award, gold plate it to look like a 2nd class award, and NOT alter the serial number to at least make it a plausible fake?

er......yes
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Old 11-30-2002, 11:27 AM   #24
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Eric,

I think the explanation is more trivial.

Both orders look perfectly genuine.

In my opinion, the order in 26K range looks like it was awarded and was worn by the recepient - hence the heavy patina.

The one in 122K range was not awarded and preserved it's original look. What looks like gold plating is simply the shine on the order, some scanners make it look more like gold than silver.

Best,

William
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Old 11-30-2002, 11:30 AM   #25
Tal Inbar
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I think so too. Some scans of the order of labor glory 3rd cl. are also have the gold look.
BTW, the patina is VERY heavy, maybe someone helped it's developement.

Tal
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Old 11-30-2002, 01:56 PM   #26
Nota Bene
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Brian, Gentlemen,

That's exactly what I am saying. The 2nd class is a fake - a gold-plated genuine 3rd class Order. Sometimes they do change the serial numbers on them or the entire back plate, sometimes they don't. In this case they took a genuine 3rd class Order with very high serial number that was never awarded and had it gold-plated to make an extra buck. I should also mention that the gold-plating is very sloppy, something you would never see on genuine 2nd class Orders.

My mistake... The piece pictured in not 2nd class, but 1st! LOL!

Alexei
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Old 11-30-2002, 05:20 PM   #27
new world
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Alexei,

Why do you keep referring to the Order #122446 from the 2nd picture as to 1st class?

The number is too high and the dealer sells it as 3rd class. He's been selling these for years, he probably acquired large stock of non-awarded 3rd classes.

As Tal pointed out - the yellowish look on the picture is due to the scanner the seller is using. In reality is does not look that yellow.

William
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Old 11-30-2002, 05:57 PM   #28
Nota Bene
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William,

Can someone ask the seller about it? I certainly could be mistaken, but I believe it is gold-plated. If it's not it's just another 3rd class piece.

I have found that listing, other scans from the same seller do not show any color distortions.

Alexei
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Old 11-30-2002, 06:10 PM   #29
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I know this dealer. I wouldn't IMAGIME him offering 2nd class, let alone 1st cl.

I think the logical explenation is that it is NOT his scan, and he used scanned 2nd class order. Olain and simple.

Tal
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Old 01-07-2003, 08:58 PM   #30
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Properly speaking, I did my best to show the micro-structure of orders in greatly understandable terms. As I could, I tried to avoid professional terms and expressions in argumentations that everything would be obvious without words. Of course, when examine the order under the microscope, we get clear idea about their structure, because we can see very close pictures during a long time, but afterwards you understand that your collocutor didn’t see this and as the saying goes: it’s better to show once than write 2 times.
Hope, that these pictures will be interesting for you and will help you in the future.

1.1- Blue enamel looks black.

1.2, 1.3 - On small pictures inside this file you can see the crystals similar to crystals appeared on "Friendship". The separate talk about the crystals will follow. What peculiarly can be very serious argument for objective proof of authenticity of amalgam gold-plating.

2.1, 2.2, 3.1, 3.2 - White enamel around letters had melted a little bit because of the high temperature.

2.3 - Candle end on white enamel of central medallion.

4.1 - Yellow color highlight lamp of microscope changes the color in yellow spectrum and as it is seen absolutely absorbed by blue enamel.

4.2 - Image was focused on enamel. Under 200% consideration of this picture we can see that instead of color run as on other enamel were formed the sinks, being situated along all gilded skirting. They alike for all: I, II, III - degrees "For service". They clean from remainders of amalgam. That confirms the secondary operation fixings of enamel after gold-plating.
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