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Miscellaneous Questions Anything else that doesn't fit into the Fake Alert Titles, Orders, Medals, or Documents sub-forums should be posted here.

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Old 02-03-2007, 12:34 AM   #1
Eryk
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Fakes?

Hello. Relatively new to collecting, and new to the forums.

My question is regarding the serial number ranges in the McDaniel and Schmitt Comprehensive Guide. I've two medals, a Medal for Combat Service and a Medal for Bravery that are each either Type 1 version 3 or Type 2 version 1 – each are on a 5 sided suspension and the Guide says that many T1s were put on them in 1943. They’re on a bar with four other medals. They are in a group, with a good amount of documentation.

Physically each fits perfectly with the Guide’s description of what each should be - rings, enamel, type of serial numbers, size of serial numbers - with one exception: the serial numbers are out of the ranges in the Guide. Each has a serial number below the “lowest observed” for a Type 2 and higher than the “highest observed” for a Type 1.

There is a certain sense in this. They are the oldest two awards in the order book, all the other awards are newer. They are more worn than the other medals as well, again indicating greater age. It is a WWII group, and that's when the changes occurred.

But they violate the “observed” numbers in the Guide. Is this proof that they’re fake? Or is it not uncommon to find things outside those ranges?
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Old 02-03-2007, 12:38 AM   #2
Eryk
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How embarrasing.. I've yet to read the following thread.. all about the medal I'm asking about. Sorry if it has the answer I'm looking for - don't mean to waste anyone's time. I'll read it right after I get back from the movies! :D
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Old 02-03-2007, 03:55 AM   #3
Eryk
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Back. Good film, Pan's Labyrinth. Recommended.

But back on topic. Having read the other thread my question stands - how hard and fast are the serial number ranges in the Guide? While out of the ranges mentioned they do make sense. (The Combat Service is 51420, the Bravery is 454390.)

(I need to get a better camera. Tried shooting some pictures, but my camera's not up to it.)
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Old 02-03-2007, 04:17 AM   #4
desantnik
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The s/n's are not hard and fast rules, they are observations. The book Echoes of War lists the lowest observed pentagonal suspension BM as 426.028 so your BM would fall into an acceptable range.

Your CSM however, if not a typo (51.420) would have definitely been originally issued with the red, rectangular suspension. You may either have a duplicate or the veteran changed it over to the pentagonal suspension according to his taste or uniformity with the BM.

Welcome to the forum.
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Old 02-03-2007, 06:33 PM   #5
Eryk
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Thanks for the word and welcome.

No, it's not a typo. From what I've read the 'style' of display for some awards, eg, medal bars, along with changing regulations did lead to recipients modifying the ribbons. No other ribbon came with either, so there's no evidence that it was originally on a different one. But your thoughts on the s/n make complete sense. Glad to hear that being out of range <> automatic fake!
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Old 02-04-2007, 08:44 AM   #6
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Eryk,

First of all, welcome to the Forum.

You need to remember that the Comprehensive Guide was published about 10 years ago now. Since then, "a lot of water has flowed under the bridges" as the French saying goes.
For up to date information, you should have a look at the Mondvor site. It is in Russian, but even if you do not read the language, you can figure out things such as serial number ranges since every type, variation and sub-variation is illustrated.

Marc
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Old 06-17-2007, 05:02 PM   #7
Eryk
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Lapa,

I'm finally documenting what I've found about the medal at hand (Bravery Medal), and want to thank you for the reference to the Mondvor site. You're right, even no Russian skill the pics and arabic numerals make things like type, version and s/n range clear.

It seems that this is a тип (Type) 1, вариант (Version) 4 - not listed in McDaniel. And originally it would have had the red, rectangular, suspension.

Thanks for the site, and welcome!

I won't be changing either medal to the other suspension, however. They're part of a complete group of five medals and two Red Stars, all with award documents, a complete order book, and ancillary documents (including a photocopy that includes a small photo of the man who earned the group). It's a WWII group, with the first award (the CSM) awarded in February, 1942, and obvious that he followed protocol in swapping the old ribbons for five-sided. The medal bar even has all the medals displayed in the correct order (according to the regulations in McDaniel).

Anyway, the history and authenticity of the group make me loath to change it. The man obviously cared for his awards throughout his life after earning them fighting for the entire war. (He was a mechanic and a supervisor of mechanics of combat aircraft. So while he was ostenisibly in 'the rear' anyone who knows the movement of the early war knows how little that would matter to how much danger one would be in. He didn't earn the Bravery Medal for nothing.) Keeping them as he did is the least I can do.
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Old 06-18-2007, 09:59 AM   #8
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Welcome to the forum. From your posts, I think you'll fit in nicely with this crowd :)
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