How do North Korean awards hit the market?

[Lapa]

Guys,

Anyone is free to believe what they want, and to justify it any which way they wish.
Personally, I tend to think, as Sebastien Charlet does, that there is some "parallel" manufacturing process at hand.

Marc

[charlet]

well, there are insane quantities of ugly cast korean orders at 10-20 usd on "E"... just think about their original price when the "E" dealer got them. And think about how many months soviet orders stayed at 15usd... (maybe the Glory order... and so what? they struck 800000 ones, 3 millions Red Star). And it was only during a time Russia encountered one of her history worst economical period. But NK is still alive, maybe famelic, but the State is still here. Chinese do cast everything they want, Russian fakers have been doing high-end fakes for many years. Think again about GDR orders and medals, made in huge quantities an so cheap: even the most basic DDR medal is better made; so I don't see why NK orders wouldn't be heavily faked.

[medals73]

Now, with a good researched source in hand, it is my guess that prices will skyrocket, supplies will evaporate, and fakes will move in to serve the market. Does this sound familiar?

[Lapa]

Guys,

That still does not explain the industrial quantities of some orders (eg Order of the flag) that available for just a few dollars. I don't believe that they originated in North Korea...

Marc

[medals73]

Guys,

That still does not explain the industrial quantities of some orders (eg Order of the flag) that available for just a few dollars. I don't believe that they originated in North Korea...

Marc

But how common is the Order of the Flagf? If you look in the Sessler & McDaniel book, you see numerous pictures of people (and not just senior generals) with multiple-multiple OoFs, essentially plate-armored in OoFs.

I take your point, but it seems to be given out very freely (for such a senior order).

[Esteban_cool]

... it seems to be given out very freely (for such a senior order).

The awarding criteria for this order is so broad that you can get it for anyting, and I mean anything, from courage shown in the face of the imperialist enemy to outstanding work quotas (let´s say, 2-3 pounds a week given the actual situation:weird) in extracting turnips.

[medals73]

The awarding criteria for this order is so broad that you can get it for anyting, and I mean anything, from courage shown in the face of the imperialist enemy to outstanding work quotas (let´s say, 2-3 pounds a week given the actual situation:weird) in extracting turnips.

True. Producing turnips is fighting the imperialist enemies.

:D

The real question remains (as given in the topic here): How do they get out? Answering that may require more knowledge of the DPRK than any of us will ever have.

[Esteban_cool]

Back in another post I mentioned refugees and fishermen. Now, in Asia is quite known that both of them do smuggle quite large amounts of stuff everywhere (This happens especially at fluvial markets). When I lived in Japan they broadcasted lots of documentaries where they tried to permeate the north korean borders (frontiers, ideological, cultural, and so on) and it was quite hard, but not impossible. They also showed flea markets in chinese towns near to the NK border with tons of books, posters, watches, pottery... and people available. Some of those items were transported by the fishermen, met their chinese counterparts at the Yalu River and swiftly exchanged the goods by trinkets, food, watches, movies, etc., other goods were hidden inside bags, sacks, fish boxes, clothing... They did not say anything about bribing the border guards, but they did mention that lots of them defect each month -and unfortunately- most of them were shot by their own comrades to get an extra rise in their pitiful salaries. The ones who survive exchange their stuff as soon as they can to the chinese dealers.
Refugees who make it to Japan through chinese smugglers also share part of the black market, and they do get a good profit there.

But I got the gut feeling that most of the stuff in China are, if not fakes, stuff given to korean war veterans.

[charlet]

But how common is the Order of the Flagf? If you look in the Sessler & McDaniel book, you see numerous pictures of people (and not just senior generals) with multiple-multiple OoFs, essentially plate-armored in OoFs.

I take your point, but it seems to be given out very freely (for such a senior order).

Ed, what does state the Sessler about these ugly and common vertical pinback variations? Are they in the book as crude as they are sold in ebay for 5 or 7usd? Are they really specified as widespread?

[medals73]

Most awards have a variety with the vertical pin (and many have a horizontal pin variety too) in addition to the Soviet-style and Soviet-manufactured screwback. The Order of the National Flag, for example, is given in 9 types and multiple sub-varieties (see below). While this classification may be a bit excessive and/or compulsive, it indicates the substantial variation in manufacture. Their discussion of the 3rd class OoF, just that class of that order, takes up 30 pages in the book. By Comparison, Cabral gives this order in all classes just 4 pages and Boik gives 6 pages to the OoF in all classes.

And we must be careful not to overestimate awards to Chinese for the war. While reliable numbers are predictably elusive, they show the Order of Soldier's Honor, 2nd class, as having been awarded 112,170 times to Koreans and 6,349 times to Chinese and estimate wartime OoF 3rd awards at 51,527 to Koreans and 22,509 to Chinese.

I know that (some) Soviet collectors like to discern fakes everywhere (and they may be there) but (at least before this book) has there really been enough interest in Korean awards and have they carried so much market value that faking them would be repaid? They tend to be either very very common or very very obscure. Faking the hero stars is one thing (and I have no dpubt that has been done), but faking an OoF 3rd class?! The book, by the way, addresses the issue of fakes rationally and based on evidence and serious observation.

Sessler and McDaniel borrow the rarity codes from the Red Bible and most things seem to be toward either extreme. Just to take as an example the OoF 3rd class:

Neck star - 5

Screwback:
T1 - 5
T2 - 2
T3 V1 - 3
T3 V2 - 2
T3 V3 - 2
T3 V4 - 5

Horizontal pin:
T4 V1 - 2
T4 V2 - 2
T4 V3 - 2
T4 V4 - 2
T4 V5 - 2

Vertical pin:
T5 V1 - 3
T5 V2 - 3
T5 V3 - 2
T5 V4 - 2
T5 V5 - 2
T6 V1 - 2
T6 V2 - 2
T6 V3 - 1
T6 V4 - 1
T6 V5 - 1
T6 V6 - 1
T6 V7 - 1
T6 V8 - 1
T7 V1 - 1
T7 V2 - 1
T7 V3 - 1
T8 V1 - 1
T8 V2 - 1
T9 V1 - 1

They estimate 990,000 numbered OoF 3rd class awards and they cannot guess at the number of unnumbered badges. For reference, the 2009 DPRK population is estimated at 23,906,000.