I walked away from the thread as there were no replies and then today by chance!!:thumbsup
Mark is correct; the 3rd class seem to hover around US$70. for both the Soviet and Ikom made pieces. You will pay more depending on the serial number if it is lower, but I sometimes see these cheaply marked and depends on the avenue of the sales and how much it actually ends up selling for.
There are a couple of sellers in the Netherlands that offer these on ebay, though, IMO, they are overpriced and often want to sell groups of them instead of single pieces. There is one that offers slightly different versions (size of the numbers and type of screw disc). Just search Partisan Stars and you'll find them.
Tim
03-30-2010, 08:06 PM (This post was last modified: 03-30-2010, 08:09 PM by Mark.)
T-Ball, yours, sn 8975 is from unnisued stock. Most of the stars in 8-9000 range were unissued. Inluding those, shown in the third pic, with packets. Those were once mine, among others I have or had have, and I took that pic (where did you find it :D). I think I posted it on this forum some years back. They were all numbered in 8-9000 range. I let them go for 50$ per piece. I'm a little sorry about it now. I should have kept them.
I also came across some very interesting information. 2. class orders appear to be much rarer than the 1. class. Many unissued examples of the 1. class were found during the civil war in Yugoslavia , but apparently no 2. classes. So these are now very hard to come by. Currently I know for a few 1. class for sale, but I haven't seen a single 2. class for sale for more than a year. Not even the largest and best supplied dilers don't have them anymore. So grab your's while you can, if you see it for sale.
Mark Wrote:T-Ball, yours, sn 8975 is from unnisued stock. Most of the stars in 8-9000 range were unissued. Inluding those, shown in the third pic, with packets. Those were once mine, among others I have or had have, and I took that pic (where did you find it :D)...
Hi Mark,
Is there a reference that shows what serial numbers were actually awarded? I was told once that the 3rd class under 10,000 were in fact awarded, so..?:confused:
On the large group PIC's, yes, they are not mine. I only use them to show other collectors what was (is?) out there.
The IKOM made pieces seem to be more prevalent today than the Soviet made ones, but both are out there if you look for them. You are correct, the 2nd class seem to be harder to find and maybe that's why they appear more desirable compared to the 1st class awards but, the prices jump considerably from the 3rd class to the 2nd class and again to the 1st class, so maybe costs factor into the equation as well. Plus, the 1st class are copied, which only adds to the issue of dealing with the 1st class awards for some.
Tim
There's no reference for serial numbers. It's just an observation and it's generally agreed on our domestic forums, that 8-9000 and 17000 ranges were never awarded. They were found unissued after the war. Another proof for this is my batch, that I bought in Sarajevo after the civil war. All of the partisan stars 3. class seen there were in this serial number range. And there were a lot of them. They all originate from Sarajevo. As a result of this, most of the 3. class that is for sale is in this SN range. Partisan stars, that are not in this SN range are considerably harder to find. Yours is 8975 and mine were 8610, 8611, 8133, 8694, 8624, 8990, 8698, 8677, 8650, 8925 and so on. All were in mint condition and all were bought in the same place. Coincidence? I don't think so...
And the information that all 3. classes below 10000 were awarded is just nonsense. These stars were sent to all parts of Yugoslavia - to local partisan headquarters, when received from the Soviet union, and they were not awarded in sequential order. As a result, a high number could be awarded sooner than a low number. Or it might not be awarded at all. A little over 10 000 partisan stars were awarded. And there were 20 000 soviet and 10 000 IKOM made. So only one of the three partisan stars was actually awarded. We are not dealing with soviet awards here, you need to keep that in mind.
Even these 3. classes would have been considerably rarer or perhaps extremely rare, if these unissued pieces were never found. Just check what is for sale right now. Only the 8-9 000 range. It took me years to find one in 4000 range and this is the lowest I ever saw I think.
Actually, I have only seen one other soviet made (Monetarny Dvor) piece below the 8000 range for sale recently, and mine is the only 8000 range piece I have seen for sale and I bought it over a year ago. Not sure how accurate or current your information is?
Talking only about 3rd class pieces here; of the soviet pieces for sale, I see numbers in the 17000 range, and IKOM pieces for sale are either 21000 or higher, nothing less.
That's what I see anyway and I have been watching for the last 6-7 months.
Note: Of all the IKOM made stars in that large group PIC posted in my earlier posting , ALL are in the 21000-22000 serial number range. Not sure when your PIC was made but you alluded it was sometime ago and I was under the impression all of those pictured with there ribbons and wrapping paper were IKOM, not Monetarny Dvor items; is that incorrect?
This information is correct. If you don't believe me, than there is no point in disscussing this any further.
All of the partisan stars on my pics were soviet made and I have allready writen some of their serial numbers. As I said, 8-9000 and 17000 soviet made are unissued, along with some others probably. Most of the IKOM made are unissued.
Mark Wrote:This information is correct. If you don't believe me, than there is no point in disscussing this any further.
All of the partisan stars on my pics were soviet made and I have allready writen some of their serial numbers. As I said, 8-9000 and 17000 soviet made are unissued, along with some others probably. Most of the IKOM made are unissued.
Well, I guess we don't need to "discuss" anything in the future then. I must say though, that I find your unwillingness to actually discuss the topic, or provide some sort of reference to support your claim a bit bewildering here.
Clearly, your knowledge base has increased or changed significantly since 2007 and contrary to the information posted in two other threads on this subject here on this very forum alone. It is also different from that on other forums. The numbers that I read and base my opinions on come directly out of this and other forums and at least one published reference: "According to Yugoslavia Army Insignia & Decorations 1918 - 1990 by Nenad Bjelos - 10.384 Partisan stars were issued until 1973." Other previous posts break the numbers down even further.
I am not here for arguments, and certainly don't like to come in as a newer member and feel unwelcomed when trying to discuss and learn something. However, I am also not the guy that takes someone's "word" as gospel on a subject when no references are provided, especially since you come off as being the subject matter expert and then have the attitude of not wanting to discuss anything when someone questions your information.
It was not my intention to upset you. I'm sorry if I did. I wasn't trying to say I don't want to disscuss anything. I said that I don't see the point in discussing about unnissued partisan stars anymore. I told you everything I know about this. Another member on another forum also told you that there were a lot of these pieces found unnisued in Bosnia. And I told you I bought mine right there, in Sarajevo, which is the capital of Bosnia. They were all numbered in 8,9, and 17 range. If you do not think this is correct than what else is to disscus about this. There's no refrence on this, at least not in english. The book you mentioned is old and a lot of new information have come out since it's release.
Also it could be that I missunderstand you somehow. You see, I'm not a native english speaker, and sometimes it is hard for me to understand what someone want's from me, or to explain what would I like to say.
Also, it is only my good will to help other members as much as I can - but I'm not obligated or payed for, to search for reference on everything I write. Sometimes there just isn't any reference and you need to count on your knowledge and experience. You need to keep that in mind. Let's see how many replys you'll receive in your topics about partisan stars, if you'll want reference on anything that is written. Very few to none. But you need to understand, that I'm not making things up as I write along. And I don't have time to explain the same thing three or four times. The information I know is based on years of collecting partisan awards and personal experience in an enviroment, where yugo partisan awards are at home. I can speak all balkan languages and I'm contributing on all domestic forums. I know many experts in the field of yugo decorations. My own grandfather and greatgrandfather wore these awards.
So I am not here to find disputes. I'm here because I like this stuff and I would like to help. Actualy this is the first time in many years, that someone was offended by my writing. So I'm sorry again.
I have posted or started threads on these Yugoslavian Partisan Stars on only three forums to date.
We're reading the one here; one has nothing in that thread as far as actual discussion and I posted some photos of mine to add to the thread in hopes of generating some interest and further discussion over there however, there isn't much interest or knowledge on the subject at this time and the only mention of serial numbers awarded was my comment, based on the discussion elsewhere.
In the last few posts, a couple other members came on to break down numbers and I'll post an excerpt from one of the more knowledgeable members there:
"Numbers of awarded partisan stars are:
1st class 627 from 1944-1980
2nd class 1531 from 1944-1972
3rd class 10384 from 1944-1972
these numbers were quoted in this thread and the same numbers I found in several Yugoslav publications, but without quotation of the original source. They are probably more or less accurate, as 3rd class was awarded to partisan commanders of platoons and companies, 2nd class to battalion and detachment commanders, and 1st class to brigade commanders and up. This award was one of the rare Yugoslav awards that were not given for post-war or political merit, but only for WW2 partisan merits.
There were much more produced than awarded, and part of the initial soviet stock remained unissued, stored for possible use in another war. In 1990's in some secret storage in Bosnia was found a hoard of unissued soviet pieces - hundreds of them. Bosnia was geographically center of Yugoslavia and hence it was considered to be a last stronghold of defence, as Bosnia is also rough mountainous terrain, where forces and political leadership would retreat in the case of attack either from East or West. That's why there was a lot of military industry in Bosnia too, as well as several storages of weapons, but also awards.
In regards of numbering, there was some inconsistency, but in general, soviet pieces are below 10.000 and IKOM pieces above 10000. How exactly was this numbering planned (if planned at all), I do not know."
In the above quotation, I see absolutely no reference to the 8000-9000 series being UNawarded, nowhere. So, I ask again, where you got your information as you are the only source I see that is stating this as a fact? Maybe you are correct, but that statement conflicts with the comments made above when we see numbers awarded and look at the difference in serial numbering. That's my point!
With that, apparently we are not going to get to any conclusion here as the tone has been set between us and maybe, in the interests of preserving the peace on this forum, we just let it go. Okay? Thank you,
:thumbsup
Oh, BTW, I am the one to bold and underline parts of the above quoted text for clarification.
As I said, there's not much information, resources or reference about this, available internationally. There's even very few people, willing to discuss this, as they do not have a lot of knowledge. Some like partisan stars and some have a few in their collection but that's about it. You can see that on some of the other forums.
I agree about the numbers of awarded partisan stars. It is generally agreed in the references and community that approximately about 10 000 partisan stars 3. class of both types were issued.
We both agree, that a hoard of unissued soviet made pieces was found in Bosnia in nineties.
Furthermore I had a chance to see in person and to inspect about 30 of these pieces at a seller in Bosnia. As I said before, I then bought about 15 of them for a very good price. The seller had more in stock and also told me he can supply even more if I want them. But when inspected by me personally, they were all numbered 8-9 and 17 000 range. Not a single one wasn't in any other range. I also bought more of them at home at different times, and from different sellers and they were also all numbered in 8-9 and 17 range. About 60% of all these pieces were numbered in 8000 range, about 30% of pieces were numbered in 9000 range and about 10% were numbered in the 17000 range. All other partisan stars 3. class are quite harder to find. And they have a few differences, so that a skilful collector can distinguish between them. I managed to find only one piece in 4000 range in my collecting time and it is clearly different from the others mentioned. In the contrary to those from 8-9000 and 17000 it clearly shows signs of wear (as do my 2. classes), like very dark browned screwpost, signs of wear on the screwpost and enamel and all pieces that I consider worn, have nice dark patina. All of the pieces in the 8-9 and 17 range have nice, silver screwpost, perfect enamel and were also at some point after they were found, cleaned of patina and have a more bright finish. The signs of polishing can sometimes be seen, especially on the front side, where it's harder to polish it because of the small places. You can inspect yours if you want and report back it's condition and if it was cleaned or not. Yours looks almost mint. You do not really expect that a piece in such nice condition was worn by a partisan during ww2? All of the pieces that I saw in the "unissued" range were cleaned, and some were even damaged at this. If you want I can photograph mine in 4000 range and you'll see what a worn partisan star should look like...
So all this is why I conclude about the unnisued stock serial number ranges. I have no reference on this, only my personal observations. And you see, that all this is based on years of collecting and inspecting, and I don't like if someone just comes by and marks my writing as rumours and gospels... It is information from personal experience. In the end it is completely your call to decide if all this info makes any sense or not. I cannot back this up by reference.
Also, the ikom made stars did not exist above 10000 but above 20000, where soviet stars end. There were 20000 or 21000 soviet stars made, I need to check for exact info.
Here's an interesting writing in the thread from 2005, that to some extent confirms my writing above. A fellow collector "Dejan" tells something similar about unnisued PS's than I.
"Hi
As we speak about Soviet made Partisan stars III I think that these were awarded even after the war until sixties or maybe latter.IKOM stars were made I guess in sixties or seventies...But what is interesting that we can not connect IKOM made stars whit any award certificate even late one...So who knows what happened and what kind of order was when they awarded these orders. All these quantities come form Bosnia (Sarajevo) both types Soviet above 8000 and IKOM 21000 and above.The story was that there was definitive last line of defence in former Yugoslavija and place for last stand.All these orders and orders for bravery,peoples merit,medal for bravery and medal for peoples merit were also find in large quantities.And all that stuff was in one of the large bunkers in area around Sarajevo.Maybe true or not who knows?
Regards
Dejan "
And on the pics is all of the stuff from this horde, bought by myself in Sarajevo. Partisan stars in 8000, 9000 and 17000 range, along with mint, unissued orders and medals for bravery, medals for merit to people and even order of labour. I bought all this from the same seller, who had bags, full of this stuff under his table.
On the third pic, you can also see, how all of the partisan stars from this hoard were polished by someone. Note the black rifles and silver frame around the enamel. The frame should also be patinated. If you check your example sn. 8975, you will see the same thing with yours.
