Re-issued awards

[Mozzabloke]

I was just wondering what happened to all the orders that the State used to take back after the recipient died.

I know some found their way onto the black market.

but presumably many were reissued. If so was a new serial number engraved?

Thanks

Mark

[Dave]

Yes, if the award was re-issued, the old number was scratched out and a new number (for the missing award) with "D" was either engraved or stamped. The Marshal of the USSR stars were a good example of the reissuance of awards.

--Dave

[Chuck In Oregon]

I know of one instance in Georgia where a man was shot during The Terror and all of his family's property was confiscated, including his medals and other awards. He was rehabilitated during the Kruschev era and his family got back several of his medals. Not all of them, but some. They must have been somewhere in the KGB archives for what, 20+ years?

Chuck

[Lapa]

Chuck,

Most likely, the family received new awards that were engraved with the original serial number.

Marc

[Chuck In Oregon]

No. The property that was returned, which included some medals and other awards, was the property that was confiscated. I met the guy's daughter. She was there when he was arrested and their flat was stripped (they left one of everything -- one chair, one fork and so on), she was there when a few things were returned. It would surprise me if the KGB ever bothered to find duplicate awards or replacement property for their rehabilitated victims. It was more a case of just closing out the file. IMHO.

Chuck

[Lapa]

Chuck,

If that is the case, how do you explain the fact that, for instance, people awarded with the Order of the Red Banner of the RSFSR (screwback) who were repressed, received upon rehabilitation a brand new Order of the Red Banner of the RSFSR on suspension!
I seriously doubt that the OGPU/NKVD/KGB was running a tight inventory management system keeping track over a period of years or decades of every single item confiscated, without even knowing if their owner would ever come back at all.

Marc

[Chuck In Oregon]

Well, I don't try to explain it at all and I don't pretend to know much about how they ran their archives, except for what I have been told in person by senior KGB and MVD officers. However, I wouldn't cast too many aspersions on a system that was so document-reliant if I didn't know for sure, unless I qualified my comments with something like "IMHO". For instance, I have in my files a document from the 1920s (as I recall) that lists not only the type and s/n of a confiscated handgun, but the number of bullets. They seem to have been pretty big on details, right up until they shot you. They did not casually steal confiscated property in the office of state security, either. Unlike, say, in the local PD. So what did they do with it? At least in the case I saw, they retained some of it.

I was there, I told you what I saw and heard. I accept that you do the same. Serious doubts or the application of our logic do not amount to an argument or defense. I doubt, for instance, that the families of rehabilitated dead men always got replacement medals. I don't know for sure, I just doubt it. I do know a couple of families of men who were executed during The Terror and I know for sure that they, at least, did not receive replacement medals when their ancestors were rehabilitated. That would tend to refute a contention of always.

I report, you decide.

Chuck

[new world]

Chuck,

If that is the case, how do you explain the fact that, for instance, people awarded with the Order of the Red Banner of the RSFSR (screwback) who were repressed, received upon rehabilitation a brand new Order of the Red Banner of the RSFSR on suspension!
...

Marc,

That's an easy one - after wearing regulations changed, it made no sense to give old screwbacks.

I read somewhere that officers arrested during 1930s purges and reabilitated in 1940-41 were given their original awards.

William

[Lapa]

Chuck,

I can't seem to find where in my statement I wrote, or even implied, a sense of "always".

William,

I had never heard or read anything about officers rehabilitated in 1940-41 receiving their original awards back. By the way, how many of them were actually rehabilitated during this period, I'd be curious of knowing.

Marc

[Dave]

Honestly, it makes sense that they kept track of everything... After all, the awards were "honored" pieces of State property, and thus were well cared for - even by the "repressors". This is the same way that you can explain a lot of the "awards only" groups that are out there for Russian recipients who died prior to 1976. The families were forced to return the awards, but they were kept together by the State, until many were "released" into private collector's hands in the early days of the post-USSR. Their system was undoubtedly much like our police systems here (and I am sure in France as well) where the physical evidence from each case is kept in storage indefinately in the case that the need may arise to revisit the cases.

--Dave