Shopping for the Order of Victory

[January]

A few questions regarding Eisenhower's Order of Victory.

Prince Bernhard of the Netherlands related to the writer Henny Meijer that Eisenhower had told him that he had had the award valued by a jeweller in Washington, who concluded that the stones were copies. Sounds like Cold War jingoism to me, but I've never seen a real Order of Victory. It ought to be pretty simple for someone who has seen it to settle this matter--I doubt that the sort of copy diamonds available in 1945 would be very convincing.

Something else that's been bugging me. There is another thread about Montgomery's Order of Victory, which has a stickpin reverse. Eisenhower's is clearly a screwback. The curator of the museum where Monty's award is housed claims that the stickpin appears orginal, and suggests that the award may have been constucted as such due to Monty's presumed unfamiliarity with Soviet uniform attachments. But, why give Eisenhower a screwback?

[Lapa]

I agree with Dave that it is most likely a picture of the award ceremony for the Order of Victory, due to the shape of the box and what can be made up of the order itself.

Marc

[January]

Forgot to mention: there is a picture of Eisenhower receiving the Order of Victory from Zhukov on page 48 of the Comprehensive Guide. Looks like the same ceremony to me (only pictures I've ever seen of Zhukov wearing glasses).

[Lapa]

January,

Where did you get these information. As far as we know, all Orders of Victory, apart from Brezhnev's, which was altered, were screwbacks. I never heard anything about Montgomery's Order of Victory being pinback (I believe that there are a few pictures of this order taken in the War Museum in London somewhere on the forum).
On your other reported story, I am a bit incredulous at the idea of Eisenhower walking into a jewelry store and asking for the Order to be appraised. It is not uncommon to use synthetic stones on orders and medals, the important part being awarded with it, not necessarily its actual bullion/stone value.

Marc

[January]

Thread with letter from medals curator:
http://www.soviet-awards.com/forum/sovie...rsion.html

Like I said, I don't believe the story about the Order being made of fake stones, but I wanted to mention it because nobody else had. It is in Henny Meijer's Het Vliegerskruis, Page 92 (ISBN 90 6707 347 4 Amsterdam 1997).

[Lapa]

January,

That is the thread I had in mind, but I must confess that I completely forgot about the pinback part of it (must have zapped it for some reason...).
I doubt that it was made as a pinback originally. All one had to do was to thread the screw through the fabric in the first place to secure the order. IMHO, I tend to believe that an experienced British jeweller removed the screwpost and mounted a pinback. Anyway, as long as we do not have any pictures from the back of the order, all we can do is guess.

Marc

[January]

You make a good point about synthetic stones commonly being used in awards (e.g., the 1cl Order of Nakhimov). It would be a disappointment to learn that the Order of Victory was made of synthetic stones, but it would make sense, considering that it was introduced in 1943. I would be curious to know what people who have actually seen the award have to say regarding how the stones sparkled in the light.

[Dave]

There is at least one person on the forum who was able to hold a Victory in his hand and thoroughly inspect it, so he can probably answer that better. I have only seen them in cases, and they appear to be real - there would be no point in making these out of synthetic stones when so few of them were being produced and the caliber of people who they were being awarded to were nothing short of legendary for the day.

As far as Monty's pinback one, I have to think that Lapa is right - it was probably converted to pinback at a later time. Between the British, French and Americans, well over 1000 screwback awards were given out and I think it unlikely that the Soviets would convert one to pinback for Monty because he couldn't figure out how to use a screwback. All of the foreigners who received screwback awards that I talked to all mentioned that they didn't wear them later because they would destroy whatever uniform they were worn on, so it would make absolute sense to convert one to pinback. A US Major General who received the Suvorov 2nd converted his into clutchback after the war, and the photo of that is here on the forum.

Hope that helps! :thumbsup

Dave

[Lapa]

January,

The rubies on the Order of Victory are also synthetic. At the time, it was decided to use these as they could not secure the amount needed of natural stones (in term of size and quality).

Marc

[Christophe]

So, what is the situation about precious stones of the Order of Victory ?

Sources seem to agree that the rubies are synthetic.
For info, specifically, in the quite comprehensive guide book of the Diamond Fund of Russia (Almazniy Fund) published in 1994, they precise the OoV is made of diamonds, corundum... It is not precised if it is synthetic of "real" corundum...

But what about the diamonds ? No source seems to say thay are not real.
In another booklet guide of the Almazniy Fund, published in 2006, it is said that the Order is made of "diamonds, in gross weight of 16 carats, and rubies".
Moreover the fact that this order is shown there seems to be a proof of its precious content, in my opinion. But, to be frank, I visited the Fund twice last year, and did not see any OoV displayed...

Ch.

PS : I don't either believe a lot in the story of Eisenhower's order being brought by himself to a jewellery shop... :confused:

(...) As far as Monty's pinback one, I have to think that Lapa is right - it was probably converted to pinback at a later time. Between the British, French and Americans, well over 1000 screwback awards were given out and I think it unlikely that the Soviets would convert one to pinback for Monty because he couldn't figure out how to use a screwback. All of the foreigners who received screwback awards that I talked to all mentioned that they didn't wear them later because they would destroy whatever uniform they were worn on, so it would make absolute sense to convert one to pinback. A US Major General who received the Suvorov 2nd converted his into clutchback after the war, and the photo of that is here on the forum.

Hope that helps! :thumbsup

Dave

Interesting comments Marc and Dave. :thumbsup It is clear, in her own words, that the IWM Medals Curator did not express a 100% sure opinion about the conversion sequence.

But, I have now two questions :

1. Has someone already seen an Order of Victory awarded directly on the uniform during teh ceremony ? And specifically for non-Soviet personalities. It seems that the only pics we have show this Order given in a box...

2. Has someone already seen a pic of Eisenhower wearing his Order of Victory ?

If the award ceremony (at least for the non-Soviet awardees) has been done through this manner, i.e. the order given in a box; and if there is no evidence of Eisenhower wearing it; this could explain why Eisenhower has his own still in a box and did not convert it.

Monty had the need to wear his, when he has been received by Stalin in the Kremlin, on 10 January 1947. This could explain why (and when) his Order has been converted in a pinback one.

These pictures would help making an opinion... If you know them, please post.

Just my thoughts.

Monty with Stalin in the Kremlin (10 January 1947).

Ch.