I have the same two patches, and both of mine are marked as well. I've never seen a fantasy patch marked in such a way. If these are fake, why bother stamping them at all when the average person wouldn't know what it means anyways?
01-11-2009, 09:13 PM (This post was last modified: 01-11-2009, 09:28 PM by centaur32.)
desantnik Wrote:The "GO" patch is for Civil Defense. It makes absolutely no sense to have a green border guard civil defense patch.
G'day Paul,
Thanks for your comment. Yes, I am well aware of what "ГО" represents. However, where is it written that anything that happened in the Soviet Union had to make sense? The facts are that these patches exist, they were manufactured exactly to the same standard as other "accepted-as-genuine" patches of the same era, and are BOEHTOPГ price stamped 72 kopeks. The other fact is that my "ГО" patch was purchased by an individual, at the factory, in bulk, in Russia, in 1989. What would make no sense would be to ignore, or discount these facts. You know the old saying,"If it looks like a duck, etc, etc, etc." What does it take to convince you skeptics that a particular Soviet is genuine? Even Alexey Stepanov admits that there were patches produced and in use that were not backed by official orders. Unfortunately, Soviet patches are not as well documented as, say, Soviet Orders, Decorations, and Medals. So, Soviet patch collecting is not as cut-and-dried as other Soviet hobbies.
Why is it that, apparently, the majority of forum members will accept a "Dembel" patch as genuine, seemingly without question or reservation, but other patches, such as the Air Assault Troops (VDV) patch, are immediately labeled as either fakes or fantasy pieces? Interesting.....No? This is especially interesting when One considers that some "Dembel" patches would be relatively easily faked.
You stated that the Green "CCCP" patches were fantasy; were, in your opinion, ANY of the "CCCP" patches genuine? If so, what were they for? What troops in the Soviet Army, Air Force, KGB, etc. would have worn them?
DougD
G'day Doug,
I trust that you won't mind if I offer some information in response to your questions to Alex. I have it on very credible authority that the "CCCP" patches' are, indeed, genuine and their designations are as follows.
"CCCP" on Red: Border Troops
"CCCP" on Cornflower Blue: KGB Security Troops
"CCCP" on Green: KGB Border Guards
centaur32 Wrote:G'day Alex,
Thanks for your critique of my collection. I just have a couple questions regarding your comments and some observations of my own.
1) VDV on Green (DShMG): What exactly do you mean by,"Have a look at details of hammer, sickle, star etc."? What is wrong here?
2) I have ГО patches on khaki and grey, with the letters in red and yellow. The CCCP on green was observed by a friend of mine in the '70s & '80s.
3) Like the CCCP on green, the CCCP on cornflower blue was seen, as well.
4) The CD, Medical and Rescue patches exist on red, black, and Maroon. Thanks for the kind comments about the hand-embroidered patches on red. The Medical patch on a magenta/brown/maroon (take your pick) was seen in 1975 and mine is thermal moulded latex on a felt-like base fabric with a khaki cloth backing.
5) It is thermal moulded latex.
6) Yes, I'll post the scans below. I've always had my doubts about the "ВВ" patch.
7) It's also thermal moulded latex.
8) Thanks.
Hello Jim!
I'd like to give you answers to some questions now...
1) Details of all new-made Soviet patches (hammer, sickle, star etc.) are very accurate. Details of hammer, sickle, star at yours VDV on Green are so high accurate made.
2) "ГО" is Civil Defense (as it was told by desantnik), so any colored patches (like "ГО" at green, deep blue, maroon - for "Border Guards", "KGB", "MVD") are impossible!
3) About "СССР" patches I'd like to answer later.
4) "The CD, Medical and Rescue patches exist on red, black, and Maroon. /.../ The Medical patch on a magenta/brown/maroon (take your pick) was seen in 1975 and mine is thermal moulded latex on a felt-like base fabric with a khaki cloth backing". I'd liko to answer to this post later too.
5) Did you mean under "thermal moulded latex" fabric production?
01-11-2009, 10:17 PM (This post was last modified: 01-11-2009, 10:22 PM by Lapa.)
Jim,
centaur32 Wrote:...However, where is it written that anything that happened in the Soviet Union had to make sense?...
I take exception to your statement. The Soviet Union, and its present day heir, Russia, were/are puzzling at times, but are neverthless logical despite all.
centaur32 Wrote:...The facts are that these patches exist, they were manufactured exactly to the same standard as other "accepted-as-genuine" patches of the same era, and are BOEHTOPГ price stamped 72 kopeks...
The facts are that excellent copies of orders, medals and badges exist, they were manufactured exactly to mint standards of the era, and are properly stamped and numbered. Does that make them genuine in any way? :rolleyes:
centaur32 Wrote:...The other fact is that my "ГО" patch was purchased by an individual, at the factory, in bulk, in Russia, in 1989...
That is an interesting statement, and I'd love to hear the details behind this story. Over my close to 20 years of collecting Soviet memorabilia and 37 year acquaintance with the "Evil Empire", I have learned to discount all stories that go along with any piece, unless there is concrete, irrefutable evidence. Any second (or third, fourth, etc)-hand story in our collecting field has the nasty habit to turn out being a fairytale in 99.9999% of the cases :(
centaur32 Wrote:...What does it take to convince you skeptics that a particular Soviet is genuine?...
Well, your Honor, something going beyond circumstantial evidence would be a nice start. And statements such as "You know the old saying,"If it looks like a duck, etc, etc, etc."" don't do much to strengthen your case IMHO :cool:
centaur32 Wrote:...Why is it that, apparently, the majority of forum members will accept a "Dembel" patch as genuine, seemingly without question or reservation, but other patches, such as the Air Assault Troops (VDV) patch, are immediately labeled as either fakes or fantasy pieces? Interesting.....No? This is especially interesting when One considers that some "Dembel" patches would be relatively easily faked...
We actually did have a discussion some time ago about fake Dembel items. IMHO, dembel items are all one-of-a-kind. Anyone could take let say a patch, alter (sorry, improve :D) it and pass it as genuine dembel. It is impossible to prove anything either way (unless the base patch turns out being a fake obviously :rolleyes:). The genuineness of dembel items is more a state of mind that anything else, I believe.
Right, that being said, I can't see how questioning the genuineness of dembel items brings more credibility to your position.
centaur32 Wrote:...I have it on very credible authority that the "CCCP" patches' are, indeed, genuine and their designations are as follows...
Care to share with the rest of us what is your "very credible authority" :rolleyes:
centaur32 Wrote:Alex: Here's the scans you asked for.....I think.
Nice patches!
Patch with "МВД СССР" title - USSR period production.
Patches without "МВД СССР" title were made after collapse of USSR in the beginning of 1990th (after 1991)
01-11-2009, 10:36 PM (This post was last modified: 01-11-2009, 10:52 PM by russiamilitaria.)
DougD Wrote:Russiamilitaria,
You stated that the Green "CCCP" patches were fantasy; were, in your opinion, ANY of the "CCCP" patches genuine? If so, what were they for? What troops in the Soviet Army, Air Force, KGB, etc. would have worn them?
DougD
Hello!
I have not information that somebody has found any orders (of Soviet MoD or other departments) describing "CCCP" patches. So now it's impossible to give any reasonable answer to question "What were CCCP patches for?" I have only one argument about reality of "CCCP" patch at red. This argument is that I got "CCCP" patch at red for my collection from old Soviet military warehouse. I'll post comparative photo of that patch later. But note that there are a lot of new-made "CCCP" patches at red!
I suppose that these patches ("CCCP" at red) can be experimental military patches 1980-90th or patches for Soviet troops for international military duties or perhaps variant for patriotic organisations for soviet young people...
01-11-2009, 10:42 PM (This post was last modified: 01-11-2009, 11:01 PM by DougD.)
centaur32 Wrote:"CCCP" on Red: Border Troops
"CCCP" on Cornflower Blue: KGB Security Troops
"CCCP" on Green: KGB Border Guards
Jim,
Yes, I know the branch colors, though red is not Border Troops...Border Troops and Border Guards are the same, and both would be green. However, these were not the patches for these forces as I know them...these would have to be some sort of special troops in the KGB, The Border Troops, or Soviet Army that would need a 'CCCP' instead of a standard patch..so, that again brings me back to my original question...what troops in these organizations would have needed special 'CCCP' patches? It's tough to judge if something is real or not without even knowing what the item is supposed to be for.
If we are speaking of Border Troops for example, and the first patch is standard, then what would be the function ( i.e. who would need) the second patch?
01-11-2009, 10:45 PM (This post was last modified: 01-11-2009, 11:39 PM by russiamilitaria.)
russiamilitaria Wrote:Hello Jim!
2) "ГО" is Civil Defense (as it was told by desantnik), so any colored patches (like "ГО" at green, deep blue, maroon - for "Border Guards", "KGB", "MVD") are impossible!
In USSR there were really existed "ГО" patches like these ones - with khaki underlayer. Material of underlayer can be cloth or even resin! These patches are from one package from abandoned Soviet Civil Defense post.
By the way does anybody know about uniform for "ГО" patches? :)
