Volgograd back to Stalingrad??

kabanchik · 02-07-2003, 11:57 PM

Earlier this week there appeared in the Los Angeles Times a photo of Putin congratulating an aged veteran on the 60th anniversary of the Battle of Stalingrad. In this article it was stated that there is a movement gathering steam in Russia to change the name of Volgograd back to Stalingrad. Has anyone else heard of this? Personally, I think it's a great idea, as this city achieved its greatest moment, its IMMORTALITY, as Stalingrad, and it is only fitting that it should bear this name again. A similar argument can be made for Leningrad. I remember when I was a kid in the 50's and 60's, and I first heard of Stalingrad. I tried to find it on the maps, but of course, I could not. And later, when I learned the truth, I wondered how a people could alter the name of a city that achieved such lasting fame under one name. It so orwellian, to try to alter history. This argument really has nothing to do with glorifying the monster Stalin, but rather about a MILLION russians who lay down their lives defending that city. Have any others members of the Forum ever thought about this?

otlichnik · 02-08-2003, 05:02 AM

I generally agree with you Kabanchik. But, given that there are probably as many victims of Stalin and their descendeants left alive as Stalingrad veterans I understand there opposition as well.

Personally, I hope that some solution can be found. For example, perhaps the city itself can remain Volgograd but a central part including Mamyev Hill can be named Staligrad.

Shawn

Kjetil Kvist · 02-08-2003, 06:58 AM

I don't think it's a good idea to revive the name Stalingrad. You have to take into account the reasons why the city was named Stalingrad in the first place. Any glorification of that man is bad.

Many battlefields from the civil war, or war between the states, have different names depending on which side you are leaning to. This have not stopped any in remembering the soldiers heroism during the battles. The argument of confusion is highly overrated.

At worst schoolchildrenwill have to read some more about the great patriotic war to understand that Volgograd is the same city as Stalingrad. They will learn some more about the history, not only about the war, but also about the Soviet Union, and I guess that will do them some good.

charlet · 02-08-2003, 09:48 AM

I don't remember if I read this on this excellent (!!) forum (Art I don't see my smilies on my control board...) the link towards a newspaper article about Putin.
It said Putin finally said, as a definitive sentence, words like this: "it definitively wouldn't be reasonnable to change back the name of the city".
About ideology, it is a entire generation who knew glory, drama and mythos of Stalingrad battle. We must respect all these old veterans. But what about Stalin's victims? our "black book of communism" raised the total of victims and put good questions (stephane Courtois, its director and good historian, too anti-communist but shake very good the mind with its questions). 15 millions vitims...a lot a Russian are descendant of another kind of "veterans" from purges and gulag. I'm sure it's a hard question for our russian neighbours...imagine you're grandson of a old vet' and maried to the little daughter of a repressed person exiled in kazakhstan in 37...what to say?

Changing Stalingrad to Volgograd is orwelian, as USSR was...but what about Tsaritsin, the imperial and by far more ancient name?

I'd be for a medium option...Keep Volgograd, and preserve pieces of soviet history (Mamaiev Kurgan site, etc...). Russians must assume the difficult contradiction of that ugly dictatorship who killed industrially opponents and modernized the old russia. The terror brought electricity... But this is the solution to respect the memory and descendance of both victims of Lenin-stalin and those who created in the system and built another country. All wasn't purely black and white, isn't it? (see for amateurs of french history, our mess with german occupation in 1940-44!!!! in france we have nice debates!!!!!!!)

For an histoy teacher like me what a mess to explain that to the youngs!

my opinion. take care all,sebastien

DougD · 02-08-2003, 12:27 PM

I have been to Stalingrad twice, and when people ask me where in Russia I have been I say "Stalingrad". It just means so much more.

I went there for the first time in 1998 and I remember on the trip from Frankfurt to St.Pete on Lufthansa, in the Inflight magazine, they had the city labled "Tsaritsyn".

I asked one of our local guides in the city about the name and he said that there was not a real recent push to change the name back to Stalingrad. However, he also said that the city WAS going to be renamed S'grad back in 1985, for the 40th anniv. of the war. Brezhnev had the idea written down and he was going to go to the city and announce it on the Mamayev Kurgan. However, Brezhnev died before this was done, and Andropov did not follow it up.

If you get a chance, go.

DD

Esteban_cool · 02-08-2003, 08:13 PM

I think that the name of the city shall be the will of its people, I mean, the majority. Should that be democratic enough?

charlet · 02-09-2003, 05:39 AM

I think otlichnik gave the key of the problem:

"(...) given that there are probably as many victims of Stalin and their descendeants left alive as Stalingrad veterans I understand there opposition as well."

so let's democracy play its role!

DougD · 07-25-2004, 11:19 AM

Putin pulling a Brezhnev like move; at the tomb of the unkown soldier in Moscow, the marker for Volgograd will change to Stalingrad.

DougD

Tretov · 07-25-2004, 11:33 AM

Leaving any political aspects out, ain't it more correct to have "STALINGRAD" there instead of VOLGOGRAD, after all the name of the city was Stalingrad by the time the battle(s) took place, and in history, the name Stalingrad will probably be far longer remembered than Volgograd.

Mozzabloke · 07-25-2004, 04:40 PM

Here is link to an article on the BBC News website.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3922121.stm

Mark

02-07-2003, 11:57 PM	#1
kabanchik Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Huntington Beach, CA USA Age: 71 Posts: 80	Volgograd back to Stalingrad?? Earlier this week there appeared in the Los Angeles Times a photo of Putin congratulating an aged veteran on the 60th anniversary of the Battle of Stalingrad. In this article it was stated that there is a movement gathering steam in Russia to change the name of Volgograd back to Stalingrad. Has anyone else heard of this? Personally, I think it's a great idea, as this city achieved its greatest moment, its IMMORTALITY, as Stalingrad, and it is only fitting that it should bear this name again. A similar argument can be made for Leningrad. I remember when I was a kid in the 50's and 60's, and I first heard of Stalingrad. I tried to find it on the maps, but of course, I could not. And later, when I learned the truth, I wondered how a people could alter the name of a city that achieved such lasting fame under one name. It so orwellian, to try to alter history. This argument really has nothing to do with glorifying the monster Stalin, but rather about a MILLION russians who lay down their lives defending that city. Have any others members of the Forum ever thought about this?

02-08-2003, 06:58 AM	#3
Kjetil Kvist Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Trondheim, Norway Age: 54 Posts: 36	Not a good idea I don't think it's a good idea to revive the name Stalingrad. You have to take into account the reasons why the city was named Stalingrad in the first place. Any glorification of that man is bad. Many battlefields from the civil war, or war between the states, have different names depending on which side you are leaning to. This have not stopped any in remembering the soldiers heroism during the battles. The argument of confusion is highly overrated. At worst schoolchildrenwill have to read some more about the great patriotic war to understand that Volgograd is the same city as Stalingrad. They will learn some more about the history, not only about the war, but also about the Soviet Union, and I guess that will do them some good. __________________ Kjetil Kvist ---- "The winter annoyed us too." - Zhukov in his memoirs

02-08-2003, 09:48 AM	#4
charlet Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Germany Age: 49 Posts: 791	I don't remember if I read this on this excellent (!!) forum (Art I don't see my smilies on my control board...) the link towards a newspaper article about Putin. It said Putin finally said, as a definitive sentence, words like this: "it definitively wouldn't be reasonnable to change back the name of the city". About ideology, it is a entire generation who knew glory, drama and mythos of Stalingrad battle. We must respect all these old veterans. But what about Stalin's victims? our "black book of communism" raised the total of victims and put good questions (stephane Courtois, its director and good historian, too anti-communist but shake very good the mind with its questions). 15 millions vitims...a lot a Russian are descendant of another kind of "veterans" from purges and gulag. I'm sure it's a hard question for our russian neighbours...imagine you're grandson of a old vet' and maried to the little daughter of a repressed person exiled in kazakhstan in 37...what to say? Changing Stalingrad to Volgograd is orwelian, as USSR was...but what about Tsaritsin, the imperial and by far more ancient name? I'd be for a medium option...Keep Volgograd, and preserve pieces of soviet history (Mamaiev Kurgan site, etc...). Russians must assume the difficult contradiction of that ugly dictatorship who killed industrially opponents and modernized the old russia. The terror brought electricity... But this is the solution to respect the memory and descendance of both victims of Lenin-stalin and those who created in the system and built another country. All wasn't purely black and white, isn't it? (see for amateurs of french history, our mess with german occupation in 1940-44!!!! in france we have nice debates!!!!!!!) For an histoy teacher like me what a mess to explain that to the youngs! my opinion. take care all,sebastien __________________ Sebastien "a spectre haunts Europe, the spectre of communism" (a well-known german bearbed)

02-08-2003, 12:27 PM	#5
DougD Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: NJ Age: 51 Posts: 2,060	Back in 1985.... I have been to Stalingrad twice, and when people ask me where in Russia I have been I say "Stalingrad". It just means so much more. I went there for the first time in 1998 and I remember on the trip from Frankfurt to St.Pete on Lufthansa, in the Inflight magazine, they had the city labled "Tsaritsyn". I asked one of our local guides in the city about the name and he said that there was not a real recent push to change the name back to Stalingrad. However, he also said that the city WAS going to be renamed S'grad back in 1985, for the 40th anniv. of the war. Brezhnev had the idea written down and he was going to go to the city and announce it on the Mamayev Kurgan. However, Brezhnev died before this was done, and Andropov did not follow it up. If you get a chance, go. DD

02-08-2003, 08:13 PM	#6
Esteban_cool Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Santiago, Chile Age: 36 Posts: 1,103	I think that the name of the city shall be the will of its people, I mean, the majority. Should that be democratic enough? __________________ There's nothing in the streets Looks any different to me And the slogans are replaced, by-the-bye And the parting on the left Are now parting on the right And the beards have all grown longer overnight The Who, Won't get fooled again

02-08-2003, 05:02 AM	#2
otlichnik Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Canada Age: 56 Posts: 547	I generally agree with you Kabanchik. But, given that there are probably as many victims of Stalin and their descendeants left alive as Stalingrad veterans I understand there opposition as well. Personally, I hope that some solution can be found. For example, perhaps the city itself can remain Volgograd but a central part including Mamyev Hill can be named Staligrad. Shawn

02-09-2003, 05:39 AM	#7
charlet Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Germany Age: 49 Posts: 791	I think otlichnik gave the key of the problem: "(...) given that there are probably as many victims of Stalin and their descendeants left alive as Stalingrad veterans I understand there opposition as well." so let's democracy play its role! __________________ Sebastien "a spectre haunts Europe, the spectre of communism" (a well-known german bearbed)

07-25-2004, 11:19 AM	#8
DougD Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: NJ Age: 51 Posts: 2,060	Volgograd to Stalingrad Putin pulling a Brezhnev like move; at the tomb of the unkown soldier in Moscow, the marker for Volgograd will change to Stalingrad. DougD

07-25-2004, 11:33 AM	#9
Tretov Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Republic of Finland Posts: 1,129	Leaving any political aspects out, ain't it more correct to have "STALINGRAD" there instead of VOLGOGRAD, after all the name of the city was Stalingrad by the time the battle(s) took place, and in history, the name Stalingrad will probably be far longer remembered than Volgograd.

07-25-2004, 04:40 PM	#10
Mozzabloke Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Sheffield, England Age: 49 Posts: 104	Link to article Here is link to an article on the BBC News website. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3922121.stm Mark

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