Fake "Capture of" Campaign Medals

[Shocktrooper]

@rocketscientist: This exactly was my question, just in other words ;)

@drill: I am a little bit confused now... 93` "modern replica" (= fake) or mint workers` mistake !? Or did they made 93` reproductions of earlier mint mistakes !?!?

The whole story seems to be a little bit more complicated than I thought... please try to seperate fact from fiction a little bit more to make it clear.

Thank you,

Jens

[travel-north]

I think what mr. Drill is saying is that mint mistake medals were produced by the mint in 1993 with a number of other medals for collectors market. They were never made to be awarded to the veterans.

[rocketscientist]

@rocketscientist: This exactly was my question, just in other words ;)

Jens, your question had to be asked again, since I found drill's statements in contradiction with my latest conclusion about this medal. Of course, if there was a real mint-mistake and some wrong medals were distributed to the veterans, these decoration would be, nowadays, extremely expensive. Therefore, they would be faked in large quantities (and the one you posted really looks one of them).

On the contrary, if these Kievs would have been created on purpose (even if by an official mint), their value would be basically zero (at least, I personally would not have any interest in buying them).

Some of the authorities on soviet awards believe that the mint-mistake was involuntary and was realized only after that some thousands were actually assigned, and give a R3 rarity rating to this variation. I imagine that the origin of this medal will remain one of the unsolved mysteries in USSR faleristic for long.

cheers
sergio

[travel-north]

Some of the authorities on soviet awards believe that the mint-mistake was involuntary and was realized only after that some thousands were actually assigned, and give a R3 rarity rating to this variation. I imagine that the origin of this medal will remain one of the unsolved mysteries in USSR faleristic for long.

That's what many westerners like to believe and it's great for the dealers. I think you should trust more serious collectors from the post Soviet countries.

[Lapa]

Jens,

I'll give you my opinion on these. I believe that these "mules" (that's the actual numismatic term referring to the mixing of dies) were made in 1993, as Drill mentioned, as a "rarity" for collectors (in other terms, a thought-out "mistake" that would allow to get more money from eager collectors than the "regular" version). As far as I know, there were no genuine mules struck during the Soviet period (an all-expense-paid one-way trip to Siberia being apparently enough of a deterrent against this type of creativity).

Marc

[Lapa]

...Some of the authorities on soviet awards believe that the mint-mistake was involuntary and was realized only after that some thousands were actually assigned, and give a R3 rarity rating to this variation...

Sergio,

A very long time has gone since these authorities published their information... Since then, a lot of new information, data and evidence has been unearthed :rolleyes:

Marc

[rocketscientist]

Sergio,

A very long time has gone since these authorities published their information... Since then, a lot of new information, data and evidence has been unearthed :rolleyes:

Marc

You're right, Marc.:)

Finally, I think we have to find the best compromise to match the maximum of information we have got so far on this medal. Do we agree in saying it is a mistake (mule) involuntarily made by the operator while producing fakes of the Kiev medal back in 1993? :chuckle:chuckle:chuckle

[Lapa]

You're right, Marc.:)

Finally, I think we have to find the best compromise to match the maximum of information we have got so far on this medal. Do we agree in saying it is a mistake (mule) involuntarily made by the operator while producing fakes of the Kiev medal back in 1993? :chuckle:chuckle:chuckle

Sergio,

No! It is a voluntary error made by the operator while producing fakes of the Kiev medal back in 1993.

Marc

[drill]

No! It is a voluntary error made by the operator

That's still a question!!!

My conjectures coincide with opinion of many soviet collectors. A Kievan falerist of high standing (Pavel Demchenko) has placed this statement at his website (in Russian). There it is written: "The mistakes at backspacing of medals "For defense of Kiev" and "For liberation of Belgrade" have been made casually, because of ignorance of employees of a mint." (It's interesting that I've read this citation already after have come to the same conclusion.)

For those who doesn’t know, this run has been coined illegally after USSR’s breaking. The new Russian government didn’t supervise this manufacturer properly at that time - the country had a lot of other problems.

Belgrade is more rare and interesting medal for collectors. Probably therefore, after error detection, the output of correct medals has been made in addition. Thanks to what we have both: correct and wrong Belgrades-93.

Kiev hasn’t altered. Or its owns masterstamp has been lost/destroyed.

[Shocktrooper]

Jens,

I'll give you my opinion on these. I believe that these "mules" (that's the actual numismatic term referring to the mixing of dies) were made in 1993, as Drill mentioned, as a "rarity" for collectors (in other terms, a thought-out "mistake" that would allow to get more money from eager collectors than the "regular" version). As far as I know, there were no genuine mules struck during the Soviet period (an all-expense-paid one-way trip to Siberia being apparently enough of a deterrent against this type of creativity).

Marc

Thank you Marc - this is exactly the information I needed. From now on all Kievs with wrong reverse are doomed as fakes and will not enter my collection. BUT: how about the "Belgrades" with wrong reverse - another medal; the same question to be answered... I do know that some guys here do have Belgrade medals with wrong reverses and they claim that they are real !?

Jens