Halhingol Battle Commemorative Badge.

[Nota Bene]

Danny,

The badge is authentic, of that I have no doubts. The screwplate is also authentic (not a fake, cast or coined). The question is if it does indeed belong to this badge. I believe it does, for reasons I have explained earlier.

Alexei

After doing more searching I am convinced that not only is the badge authentic, but so is the nut. I found another website which has a badge like the one in post 1 with what appears to be the same screwnut.

[Dolf]

Dolf, if you friend refers to the "neon" colours in the first pictures, as the ones with replaced enamel, then he shouldn't. There is no neon colours. None. It is red and made of hot enamel. He is saying that replacement enamel would be made of cold enamel if I am reading him correctly?

Danny,

As I mention above I've sent him both couple of pics you posted, the obverse and reverse scans of your Post #1 that started this thread, as well as the two other, also obverse and reverse, that you made with your digital camera.

I suspect that he didn't realize that the four pics were of the very same piece.

So my guess is that when he refers to the "suspicious colors" he is talking about the first 2 pics (scans) you posted, that btw originated the same reaction from Paul and myself.

Anyway, it's clear from the 2nd couple of pics you posted (made with the digital camera) that the initial "neon colors" were probably a scan effect.

What he says about techniques on how to repair or redo enamel is a generalisation, apparently not addressed to your Badge in particular.
And yes, cold enamel (or even nail polish or also paint) is used by most people who do repairs on enamel, either in Mongolia, or elsewhere, according to my friend not only by "black market people" but also by the "Badge factory people" (the mint I guess).

Now the other dealer, be it reputable or not as much so as others, you mentionned, has the same badge as the one I (humm.... my wife ) purchased from Alexei with the same screwnut. So my point was would two of these badges be sold by dealers? What are the odds of that? Plus I found the same badge with what appears to be the same screwnut on another badge website (PM me for the link). A third source? What are the odds on that?

The chances that Mongolian Orders, Medals or Badges arrive in the West with wrong screwnuts are very high. It happens all the time.

Notice that my friend believes that the screwnut is authentic (probably for a Best Herdsman Badge), only not for the Halhingol Badge.

I guess the best way for the experts to see the badge would be to handle it themselves instead of viewing photographs.

Absolutely!
Just as an example your Badge doesn't looks the same on those pics made with the scan and those made with the digital camera, so as Paul pointed out before no one can be 100% sure only from a couple of pics.

I am not an expert, far from it but I am convinced at 110% that this badge is authentic and convinced at 80% that the screwnut is authentic as well. As Alexei mentionned there are quite a number of variations out there. Superb discussion indeed.

I'm no expert either, still learning everyday, and threads like this one are indeed a fantastic help on our learning!

I'm sure that when you posted your Post #1 you never imagined the thread would contain now almost 50 Posts! :wow


Anyway, as my friend says, the Badge itself is authentic, the screwnut is authentic as well, but he believes this is not a screwnut for the Halhingol Badge.

Danny,

The badge is authentic, of that I have no doubts. The screwplate is also authentic (not a fake, cast or coined).

Alexei

Alexei,

Exactly what I just said to Danny.

The question is if it does indeed belong to this badge. I believe it does, for reasons I have explained earlier.

First time I see one of these screwnuts on a Halhingol Badge, so I guess I've not seen all variations yet.

Thanks,

Dolf

[Nota Bene]

Dolf,

That description from my site is from another badge :)

I appreciate the input from your Mongolian friend, and I have no doubts that he is an expert in his field, but ... I think we can safely rule out the possibility that this screwplate came from a herdsman badge, for one simple reason - this badge came from Russia, and I doubt there too many of them in Russia :)

Alexei

[Nack]

I don't know if this is plausible, but as to the screw nut, if the Halhingol badge and best herder badge were made in the same factory, or say shipped to the same assembly place or something, maybe at times the technically "incorrect" herder screwplates were used on Halhingol badges if the assembly-people ran out of "correct" Halhingol screwplates?

[dannybou]

I'm sure that when you posted your Post #1 you never imagined the thread would contain now almost 50 Posts! :wow

That is an understatement Buddy!! :yow But it made me dig and look for other badges on the web to compare and now I know there are quite a few out there. Of course, now I want them all... :thumbsup

[Dolf]

Dolf,

That description from my site is from another badge :)

I appreciate the input from your Mongolian friend, and I have no doubts that he is an expert in his field, but ... I think we can safely rule out the possibility that this screwplate came from a herdsman badge, for one simple reason - this badge came from Russia, and I doubt there too many of them in Russia :)

Alexei

Alexei,

Thanks for the clarification about the description of another Halhingol Badge on your site. ;)

As for the fact that Danny's Badge came from Russia: I know from a few reliable Mongolian sources, that Russian dealers go to Mongolia all the time to buy all the Mongolia stuff they can grab, that later they sell either in Russia or to Western dealers/collectors. As this Halhingol Badge, together with a few Mongolian awards (for example the Partisan Badge, or those Best Herdsman Badges, to name just a couple) are very much appreciated in Russia, my guess is that there are plenty of these Badges in Russia.

Anyway, even in Mongolia, it's very common that the local dealers sell Orders or Badges with wrong screwnuts, it happens all the time.

So I'm convinced that the screwnut on Danny's Badge is authentic, but as I pointed out before I've just never seen a Halhingol Badge with such a screwnut. And my Mongolian friend and expert tells me that this screwnut is not an original one for the Halhingol Badge, so I guess that many of these Badges we see in the West with different screwnuts simply have been wrongly put on those Badges, a simple from the source error.

Best,

Dolf

[Nota Bene]

Dolf,

You are talking about a fairly recent trend, and you are assuming that the badge just came out of Russia :)

I am well awards that Mongolian awards often come with wrong screwplates :)

Alexei

[Dolf]

Dolf,

You are talking about a fairly recent trend, and you are assuming that the badge just came out of Russia :)

Alexei

Alexei,

You mean the fact that Russian and Chinese dealers travel to Mongolia to grab whatever they can, right?

Yes indeed I was assuming you got it not years ago but rather recently :)

I am well aware that Mongolian awards often come with wrong screwplates

Of course! :)

Anyway, to be honest, as I mentioned on a recent email, I didn't even know you also deal with Mongolian awards, so it's me who wasn't aware of your knowledge about these awards! :(

By the way, I got confirmation from Mongolia that different minor variations of these Halhingol Badges do indeed exist.
But still no confirmation that the screwnut we have been debating is an original Halhingol Badge screwnut ;)

Finally, one question that interests Danny, myself and probably others:
Where were these Halhingol Badges manufactured?
And the Best Herdsman Badge?

Danny,

I believe I have the answer to where were those Badges made.

Here is the info I got:

All Halhingols were manufactured in Russia. The fist type in the
"Tvorchestvo Hudojnikov" and the later type in the "Monetny Dvor".

As to the Best Herdsman Badges. Only J 02 types (Dr. Battushig's book reference) were manufactured in Russia at "Monetny Dvor". The other three (J 01, J03, J04) in Mongolia.

Hope it helps.

Alexei,

What is that "Tvorchestvo Hudojnikov"? Is it the Moscow Arts Cooperative?

Best,

Dolf

[Christophe]

Dolf,

It is the Moscow Artists Cooperative (MTKh). With a quick search on the web, I'm sure you should find more...

Cheers.

Ch.

[dannybou]

Danny,

I believe I have the answer to where were those Badges made.

Here is the info I got:

All Halhingols were manufactured in Russia. The fist type in the
"Tvorchestvo Hudojnikov" and the later type in the "Monetny Dvor".

As to the Best Herdsman Badges. Only J 02 types (Dr. Battushig's book reference) were manufactured in Russia at "Monetny Dvor". The other three (J 01, J03, J04) in Mongolia.

Hope it helps.

Alexei,

What is that "Tvorchestvo Hudojnikov"? Is it the Moscow Arts Cooperative?

Best,

Dolf

So it is possible that the screwnut on my badge is original to the badge??