My Soviet Patch Collection

[pastfinder]

My latest patch from the Ukraine. Different marking to most of my other patches.

Nice topography patch.

[pastfinder]

what are those patches for ,

I'm not known with patches in any way.
but I'm always willing to learn.

Border Troops Foreign Observer (I think) patch, Border Guard Civil Defense, Red Cross.

I'm NOT 100% sure on what they mean since I don't have reference material...I'm going off what I have been told about them.

[DougD]

The patches are yours and you are the ultimate authority on what you are comfortable with. In my opinion the CCCP patches were made of original material but are totally for the bulk sales / fantasy market. I have never seen any reference to them other than on Ebay and other such outlets. I can find no mention of them in the Stepanov Guide, even though he covers UN observers and Border Troops patches; no where in the guide is there these 'CCCP' patches. They may have been real, but I'd like to see some support for them.

I am not sure why the Soviet Union would have a load of enlisted men foreign military observers for? Also, I am not sure what the source is for this? Perhaps it is true, but I have never heard it from a non-selling source.

As for the stamps, please see the thread about Fakes that I started and pasted; there is a lot in there about the use of stamps on reproduction items.

DougD

[pastfinder]

The patches are yours and you are the ultimate authority on what you are comfortable with. In my opinion the CCCP patches were made of original material but are totally for the bulk sales / fantasy market. I have never seen any reference to them other than on Ebay and other such outlets. I can find no mention of them in the Stepanov Guide, even though he covers UN observers and Border Troops patches; no where in the guide is there these 'CCCP' patches. They may have been real, but I'd like to see some support for them.

I am not sure why the Soviet Union would have a load of enlisted men foreign military observers for? Also, I am not sure what the source is for this? Perhaps it is true, but I have never heard it from a non-selling source.

As for the stamps, please see the thread about Fakes that I started and pasted; there is a lot in there about the use of stamps on reproduction items.

DougD

DougD,

What's the link for the thread? Stepanov's book is great, but it has nothing on naval patches and is not as all-inclusive as we would like sadly. I don't disagree on the number of patches produced, I just have found that I have never seen a fake stamped on the back with production information. I realize the people making fakes are getting better and better (Third Reich decorations are getting near impossible to collect) but why fake something that sells for only a dollar or two? Hell, some of the patches people claim to be fakes can be bought for only $1 or two. Why fake something if you can't make any real profit on it? It just doesn't make sense.

I try to base what is real and not real on the reference material I can find, but also by comparing thread count, material, quality, back stampings, and price when determining what is real and fake. I acknowledge a few of the patches displayed in the original images are fake (and they have been removed) but in a way it's handy to have a fake for reference itself.

Hopefully in the next few weeks I'll have answers on some of my questions as well as IDs on a few patches if they are real or fake.

[DougD]

Here is the link about Repro WWII uniforms; there is quite a bit about stamps:

http://www.soviet-awards.com/forum/sovie...tions.html

[pastfinder]

Here is the link about Repro WWII uniforms; there is quite a bit about stamps:

http://www.soviet-awards.com/forum/sovie...tions.html

Many thanks! I'll try to take some photos of different patch stamps and post them on here for reference.

[DougD]

Pastfinder,

Again, you must be the ultimate judge, but here are a quick bullet points of my concerns:

1. These patches seem to be in large numbers in multiple colors
2. I can't find anything in the Stepanov book about them, though he covers both Border Troops and Observer patches (i'll get an e-mail to him this weekend to ask)
3. I can't find anything on them in the regulations translated by Shawn Caza
4. I can't think of a use they would have; where would there be a need for large numbers ( i.e. not one or two officers) of enlisted men KGB Border Troop Observers?
5. I never saw any in the early 1990s, and then in the past few years they have been on the market.
6. I have never seen any on a uniform (of any color patch)
7. I have never seen any photos in any book of any color 'CCCP' patch.


To address some of the above: I am not a huge fan of regulations as an end all be all, so lets kill #3...also, not seeing something in a photo yet is meaningless (some only think an item is real when they themselves have seen it in photos) so I'll kill #7...i recently got in a uniform that had a patch on it that is good and is not in Stepanovs book, so maybe he left it out (but left out all colors and mentions?)..so lets kill #2...maybe I missed the ones that came over in the 1990's (though I have had thousands of uniforms go through my hands in the past 12 years), so lets kill both #5 and #6...

However, I can't get over #4, I still can't think of a situation for them..."Foreign Observers KGB Border Troops Enlisted Man"...for me, to accept an item, any item, it has to have a function, and I just can't seem to nail this one down.

Again though, its a good looking patch and you are the ultimate keeper of your collection : )

DougD

[pastfinder]

Pastfinder,

Again, you must be the ultimate judge, but here are a quick bullet points of my concerns:

1. These patches seem to be in large numbers in multiple colors
2. I can't find anything in the Stepanov book about them, though he covers both Border Troops and Observer patches (i'll get an e-mail to him this weekend to ask)
3. I can't find anything on them in the regulations translated by Shawn Caza
4. I can't think of a use they would have; where would there be a need for large numbers ( i.e. not one or two officers) of enlisted men KGB Border Troop Observers?
5. I never saw any in the early 1990s, and then in the past few years they have been on the market.
6. I have never seen any on a uniform (of any color patch)
7. I have never seen any photos in any book of any color 'CCCP' patch.


To address some of the above: I am not a huge fan of regulations as an end all be all, so lets kill #3...also, not seeing something in a photo yet is meaningless (some only think an item is real when they themselves have seen it in photos) so I'll kill #7...i recently got in a uniform that had a patch on it that is good and is not in Stepanovs book, so maybe he left it out (but left out all colors and mentions?)..so lets kill #2...maybe I missed the ones that came over in the 1990's (though I have had thousands of uniforms go through my hands in the past 12 years), so lets kill both #5 and #6...

However, I can't get over #4, I still can't think of a situation for them..."Foreign Observers KGB Border Troops Enlisted Man"...for me, to accept an item, any item, it has to have a function, and I just can't seem to nail this one down.

Again though, its a good looking patch and you are the ultimate keeper of your collection : )

DougD

DougD,

I have no arguments or complaints. As a collector of one of the most unwanted, unspectacular items of Soviet insignia, I've found practically no one that knows anything about the patches, what they stand for, or where I can find info on them. I admit basing a lot of my judgments on what is real versus fake off of years and years and thousands of patches passing through my hands. Some just have "it" and others I realize are just too good to be true. I've seen these CCCP patches since around 1995, but they have never been that common on ebay, or maybe it's me. Hopefully Stepanov can figure out what the deal is and see what the official records have.

The versions I have come from a large lot of patches that came straight from the factory and were purchased in 1990 while the USSR was still in existence, albeit at the end of it's life. Does this mean they are real? Not really, since Western dollars were as good as gold and if their was money to be made it was. The fact one of them is factory marked, unlike any other fakes showing up, and that they date back to the USSR, I tend to think them valid. This could in the end be all malarky, in which case I start a separate case for fakes :)

[kliment]

Hello,

I have bought this embroidered patch in 1983 (83) in Brussels. When I first seen the soviet plastic patches, I was quite surprised by the poor quality. Anyone have an idea about the origin of that kind of patches (there is a very similar VDV's one in the first Bekesi's book, p.138)?

[pastfinder]

Hello,

I have bought this embroidered patch in 1983 (83) in Brussels. When I first seen the soviet plastic patches, I was quite surprised by the poor quality. Anyone have an idea about the origin of that kind of patches (there is a very similar VDV's one in the first Bekesi's book, p.138)?

I have a patch VERY similar to yours. Mine is an artillery patch, but it's the same style. Is your padded?

The origin of the patches is found on pages 26 of the book Soviet Arm Badges, 1920-91 by Col. Alexey Stepanov. He writes:

"The mass manufacture of badges by method of hand-embroidery was too expensive, that is why it was decided to make badges by stamping of thermally molding of plastic layer on a cloth background."