Fake Documented Groups of Orders

[new world]

Dear colleagues,

I'd like to ask you opinion about this group with awards doc:

[new world]

Here are some scans of the Ordenskaya Knizhka. The last two awards are the only ones in the group. The first 3 are missing.

[new world]

Do you see anything suspicios about this award document?

[new world]

Here's Kutuzov 3rd cl from this group:

[new world]

reverse of the Kutuzov 3rd cl:

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and finally Khmelnitsky 3rd class.

Any of your comments are greatly appreciated!

Thank you

[Brian]

New World,

I am only going to comment on behalf of the Kutuzov order as I have an excellent version in my collection that has been authenticated by Paul. While looking at pictures is often what we have to compare pieces, there is just no substitute for holding the actual object and scrutinizing its details. Your scans are excellent for comparing (something i need to work on)

Anyway, here are my comments. The detailing on the Kutuzov just doesn't begin to compare with an original in my mind. The obverse lacks the details that mine has. For example, the 3rd class Kutuzov exhibits very fine horizontal "grooves" under the bust of Kutuzov. Surprisingly this differs on the 2nd class version (I'm not sure about the first class as I haven't yet gotten mine yet...) The one in the above pics don't look nearly as detailed and I can't imagine that this would come from just wear. Secondly the lettering looks way too sloppy. For instance look at the "hole" in the "A". The hole should be triangular in shape where as the one above looks more like a slit. Basically the details just look way to crude.

When looking at the reverse the mint mark struck me as looking different then mine, so I looked ath McDaniel's book and page 108 the bottom right picture shows a similar mint mark to the one you show. If I can quote mcdaniel on 107-108 in reference to this picture "Take a special note of the stamped mint mark. Mint marks were never struck in this fashion, with the letters spread out, and all orders that exhibit this are fakes." Anyway when comparing it to mine I notice that the letters my order are much closer together than the order in question as seen in the example on page 106.

Anyway I hope this helps.

Brian

[otlichnik]

I am not an expert in orders but I worry a bit about the entries for the two higher orders in the booklet. The ink has spread and is very messy - it almost looks like felt tip pen. Does anyone know if this is a sign of anything??

Shawn

[new world]

What worries me the most - it's the document. Two last entries are too sloppy and look odd. The ink is different and stamps look like they have been made by someone else who's not an official.

Also note how visible are the last two entries through the front page.

[Ed Maier]

New World,

I have serious doubts about your document for serveral reasons. First, the document is a post war issue document and the first three awards are long service awards. The Medal "For Military Merit was probably awarded near the end of the war in a seperate Medal Book. When he received the Order of the Red Star, they changed the book to an Order Book. Now the questions that must be asked is how does an officer with no wartime awards rate two high Orders in 1953 and later? I've never seen this type of awarding before, so I do not think that it is likely to have happened.

Second, I am always suspecious of the books where the last awards are the only ones present and the present awards are high end, and awarded (if the book is to be believed) after the Order Book was issued. This should cause warning lights in your mind.

Third, I do not like the stamps and style of ink used. They are strange and not what you would normally see.

The only way to know for sure about the Orders is to have then authenticated by Paul McDaniel. These Orders are faked so well now that I would send then to him if these were mine. Researching the Orders are the only way to now if they belong to the group as well, but these two Orders are difficult to research and I seriously doubt that they belong to the group.

Just my opinion,
Ed